Changes for Bristol Street in 2007?
As I did last year, I'm looking for feedback on what was good and bad about the year, what should we consider changing and what should be altered or tweaked.
The post will start off with a summary listing the items that a) are being debated, b) will change or c) won't change.
After that I'll start the ball rolling with the changes I'd like to see then the rest of the post can be used for debate or for adding some new items to be considered. I found this really helpful last year and, as a results, we added some new games into the Bristol Street mix, altered the point system into something more fair and changed the standard game into a freeze-out.
SUMMARY
Under Consideration
- Adding a points "bubble"?
- more players at the Grand Final?
- Legends of Bristol Street 2007?
- Heads-up 2007?
- Summertime, online event for points?
- Bristol's on non-Wednesdays?
- Bristol Street website?
Definately Changing
- The wall of fame, WILL BE BUILT!
Definately Staying the Same
- Variety of Bristol Street games (PLO, HORSE, etc) returns in '07,
a) Adding a points "bubble"
I like how the points are generated. Exponentially more points for finishing higher on the list! I think the lower point totals are pretty meaningless, and so to make my life a little easier, I'd like to emulate the professional poker world by only awarding points to the Top X finishers.
But, because we like to see lots of points, for this first year, I'm thinking of making it pretty generous and only awarding points if you would have got 15 or more in the old system.
This means, for example, that the the top 15 players in a 32 person tournament would get points, while only the top 8 players would get points in an 18 player tournament.
My spread sheet is littered with 11, 12 and 13s which are statistically meaningless by the end of the year, so I'd like to do away with them.
This would also add another "bubble" to the game which may add some excitment. While I wouldn't go hand for hand before the points bubble burst (and trust that the players are playing at a good speed), I'd make sure to announce what the points bubble is at the beginning of the tournament.
b) Changes to the GRAND FINAL
Should the Grand Final "invite" more than 18 players or does that make it too easy to get into. I'm considering bumping it to 24, but I'm really on the fence on this one.
c) Bringing back the "Legends of Bristol Street".
I'll be the first to admit that I've really dragged my ass on getting this done, but I liked the idea, so I'm thinking of setting aside two weeks and running the Legends as a "series of poker". We have the main event (repeating the multi-day format of last year), and adding single night side events. I'd still like to tape it, even if I've fallen behind from last year.
d) Bring back the Heads-up tournament
As a summer idea it was neat. I hate runner larger summer events as my house (as well as the cards) can't take the heat. This allowed for low attendance summer poker, but it went on about 4 months longer than intended. Should it even return in 2007?
I'm leaning towards yes, but only if there are more strict rules in place around playing matches. It was too easy to let a game just slide by forever without repercussions, but I think the rules that were adopted near the end of the this one, has made it easier.
If it left a bad taste in too many people's mouths, then I'd scrap it, or reduce the size.
Anyway, that the's short list off the top of my head and there are at least two more than I know I'm forgetting at the moment.
Please feel free to comment on the above or add your own suggestions on how to improve Bristol Street for the 2007 season.
Thanks!!!
The post will start off with a summary listing the items that a) are being debated, b) will change or c) won't change.
After that I'll start the ball rolling with the changes I'd like to see then the rest of the post can be used for debate or for adding some new items to be considered. I found this really helpful last year and, as a results, we added some new games into the Bristol Street mix, altered the point system into something more fair and changed the standard game into a freeze-out.
SUMMARY
Under Consideration
- Adding a points "bubble"?
- more players at the Grand Final?
- Legends of Bristol Street 2007?
- Heads-up 2007?
- Summertime, online event for points?
- Bristol's on non-Wednesdays?
- Bristol Street website?
Definately Changing
- The wall of fame, WILL BE BUILT!
Definately Staying the Same
- Variety of Bristol Street games (PLO, HORSE, etc) returns in '07,
a) Adding a points "bubble"
I like how the points are generated. Exponentially more points for finishing higher on the list! I think the lower point totals are pretty meaningless, and so to make my life a little easier, I'd like to emulate the professional poker world by only awarding points to the Top X finishers.
But, because we like to see lots of points, for this first year, I'm thinking of making it pretty generous and only awarding points if you would have got 15 or more in the old system.
This means, for example, that the the top 15 players in a 32 person tournament would get points, while only the top 8 players would get points in an 18 player tournament.
My spread sheet is littered with 11, 12 and 13s which are statistically meaningless by the end of the year, so I'd like to do away with them.
This would also add another "bubble" to the game which may add some excitment. While I wouldn't go hand for hand before the points bubble burst (and trust that the players are playing at a good speed), I'd make sure to announce what the points bubble is at the beginning of the tournament.
b) Changes to the GRAND FINAL
Should the Grand Final "invite" more than 18 players or does that make it too easy to get into. I'm considering bumping it to 24, but I'm really on the fence on this one.
c) Bringing back the "Legends of Bristol Street".
I'll be the first to admit that I've really dragged my ass on getting this done, but I liked the idea, so I'm thinking of setting aside two weeks and running the Legends as a "series of poker". We have the main event (repeating the multi-day format of last year), and adding single night side events. I'd still like to tape it, even if I've fallen behind from last year.
d) Bring back the Heads-up tournament
As a summer idea it was neat. I hate runner larger summer events as my house (as well as the cards) can't take the heat. This allowed for low attendance summer poker, but it went on about 4 months longer than intended. Should it even return in 2007?
I'm leaning towards yes, but only if there are more strict rules in place around playing matches. It was too easy to let a game just slide by forever without repercussions, but I think the rules that were adopted near the end of the this one, has made it easier.
If it left a bad taste in too many people's mouths, then I'd scrap it, or reduce the size.
Anyway, that the's short list off the top of my head and there are at least two more than I know I'm forgetting at the moment.
Please feel free to comment on the above or add your own suggestions on how to improve Bristol Street for the 2007 season.
Thanks!!!
Comments
Along these lines I was going to suggest that it be best of 5 events, not 4.
b) No it should be hard to get into the grand final
c) Legends for sure, with HORSE as well. Not sure about other side events. I think it is a fairly big time committment just for a 3 day event.
d) Heads up tourney again. Have everyone play the first two rounds on a Sat at Bristol. Then the rest should run smoother and quicker because 1/2 the field will be gone.
Omaha, stud, badugi and/or crazy pineapple (casual Friday?) tourneys please.
/g2
b) keep it at 18 max, it should be hard to get in
c) yes, and perhaps you could share hosting duties over the 2 weeks. I'm sure other K-W venues would volunteer to help you host events. You could still come and act as tournament director (which is really what makes it a "Bristol" event in my mind) but you wouldn't have to use your place every night...just a thought
d) it would be good to keep the heads-up tourney, but I'd suggest playing the first three rounds at one time, probably on a Sat. or Sun. (that's only about 5-6 hours, not much longer than a typical tourney)
Other suggestions:
i) add a shoot-out format tournament perhaps?
ii) please bring back the PL Omaha event next year, at least once
iii) maybe host an on-line Bristol event in the summertime? Making it an official Bristol points event might generate interest...
Ranger Mike
a) Points bubble - I wholeheartedly agree with this. It will [I imagine] greatly clean up the book-keeping, and possibly add a little more excitement to the game. And we all know Bristols sure are lacking in excitement lately
In response to moose's suggestion of increasing the # of 'best of' events to 5, I think this is a bad idea. It was already increased from 3 in 2005 if I remember correctly. Also, I think going to best of 5 might cancel out the positive effects of the new points bubble (if that is introduced).
A lot of the 'regular faces' can only make it to 4 or 5 Bristols a year. Stupid co-op!
b) Bump final to 24 players: I like it at 18... it allows a ton of play for the final, which is why I so badly want to play in one.
c) Legends = a series of events: Sounds like a lot of work, but if you're up for it I'm sure no one will complain. And I would be willing to offer my services as "assistant legends director" to run a side event or two if that would help.
d) Heads-up: I really wanted to play in this event, but couldn't due to being away on co-op when it started. I suspect the same thing will happen again if it is run in 2007... so I'm impartial. My idea if you do run it though... maybe run it on three set dates... e.g. two Wednesday nights in a row, and then the 'Final Four' (or however it works for double-elimination) on a Sunday. That would avoid the one million and one scheduling conflicts that matches ran into. It would also narrow the field as competitors would need to be able to play on all 3 days (I dunno if this is something you would want).
Definitely
/g2
But what I meant was I could act as tourney director and run an event at Bristol... I would just do all the legwork with the chips, tables, buyins, chipups, tourney report, etc... and Rob would just have to worry about winning, or getting drunk off his ass... his choice!
A Bristol wouldn't be a Bristol if it wasn't at Bristol!
/g2
I guess you will be really disappointed when they print University of Waterloo on your degree then.
/g2
a) The points bubble makes sense since it doesn't change anything but makes it easier to track. Plus, saying "I'm the points bubble-boy" sounds a lot better than "I'm the loser who played every event and only got 34 points".
b) I'd still keep the final at 18 players though. It's supposed to be special...
c) Legends (and a series) would be great - I had a blast at the last one. Can we have some more dancing gnomes? And as has already been mentioned - many of us will help either with locations or manpower - just ask (if you even want help
d) I'm going to go against the flow and recommend the same format for HU (with the changes that were added late). Some players simply can't commit to multiple specific days and couldn't play (Jenn and I couldn't both play in that case). Also, considering the GREAT structure provided, playing a bunch of those in a row would be somewhat draining, and make it partly an endurance contest. Having everyone play "fresh" for each match makes it more of a challenge. Just give everyone a specific window for each round (1 or 2 weeks). Also, if the final is going to be a set date, set it at the start of the tourney so we can plan/schedule around it (in case we make it that far).
As far as Moose's suggestion to increase the number of tourneys counted, I agree with g2. Some players can't make it out often, and some players start late in the year (University-town in September
Also, another HORSE tournament would make me REALLY happy. My favorite game and I had to miss this one
Basically, tweak Bristol a little, but don't change it too much - it's working great. Thanks for a great year of events!
a) For those players that can only make it out to a few tournaments a year those extra few points could potentially be the ones that get them in the TOC. I know for myself I've made 4, maybe 5 tournaments with my lowest being 12. I'll need those 12 to qualify (of course, that is, if I hadn't already qualified). I say leave the format as it is. Speadsheets are suppose to be ugly and littered
b) Keep it at 18. This ensures that the most dedicated and 'best' players that year have qalified. If you can't make the top 18 you always have next year.
c) I'm indifferent to the legends. I would finish what you started, see the final result and then look at doing it again.
d) I would keep the heads up as is with the restrictions the same as the end of the tournament. I think that if you were to have one specific day where you played 2-3 rounds you may not get the same response.
Additional suggestions:
I like counting only 4 tournaments.
Alternate the days of Bristol st. events (Wednesday nights are not good for everyone) Sunday was a nice change!
Wall of fame!!
Create a Bristol st. website with player profiles and toury reports that can be submitted to you!
Anyway, great year so far. Thanks again for running this!
stp
No, the points should be based on skill not luck. 5 events is rougly 1/3 of the events. Not many, compared to many leagues which require at least 50% attendance. I don't mean to diss people like Greg who are good guys and great contributors but having a uni player show up and play in a few events and contribute nothing to the spirit and comraderie of Bristol is not the guy I want to be playing in the Grand Final.
I know I am coming from a different perspective here but when Tye took down his 2nd title I thought that he had the POY race locked up. I distinctly remember thinking what are the odd's of someone taking down 3 events to pass him? Impossible I thought. With only 4 events counting, that was really the only way to pass him. Now the only way to pass me is to take down 4 events - I think that kills interest. Maybe people will use my 3 wins as an example of 'see it could be done' But really I got extremely lucky. I use Tom as an example of a player who is playing well and has consistently hit final tables, but after 4 final tables, the rest don't count, so his 6 final tables do him no good.
The POY and Grand Final are supposed to represent what was accomplished in ONE FULL YEAR OF PLAY. Not a couple of good finishes in a few months of play. My wife has played two events, finished 3rd and 15th way back in Feb and March and is still sitting in the top 40 - even under Rob's new proposed system, she would still have earned points in both events. While I personally would like her to be at the TOC, I don't think that if she were to play next week (she won't be), and finish 2nd, constitutes POY material. Yet that would likely give her enough points for the TOC.
In summary five events represents a long term committment to Bristol, it emphasizes skill over luck, it gives the regulars are better chance to be at the TOC at the bottom end, it puts more emphasis on continued success at the top end and it still doesn't prevent a good uni player from winning a Bristol and qualifying on merit.
/g2
I believe my post contained two solid examples of a player at both ends of the top 40. One who is being disadvantaged by the system and one who is being advantaged.
I'm sorry you didn't take the time to read the post. I took considerable time in writing it.
But you are correct, my wife is not a University of Waterloo student and that was the intent of using her as an example. I could care less where anyone lives and where anyone works or goes to school. It is my pleasure to play at Bristol, whomever is at the table. But it is Player of the YEAR, not Player of 'a couple of events'.
I have given my suggestons for improvement, as requested by Rob. If my reasoning wasn't clear, I believe I have explained my thinking. I don't believe any further debate serves to contribute.
And I did take the time to read your post. However, I thought your reason for going with best of 5 events was to axe the people who just play a few events and sneak into the Grand Finale.
Now I'm really confused... because I really thought we were just talking about the Grand Finale seats 'Bubble'. Player of the YEAR is only the #1 points leader... and that's you! Congrats moose.
Sorry if anyone feels this thread has been hijacked... but I needed somewhere to practice my mad copy/paste/multi-quote skillz!
/g2
The overriding theme at my place is casual fun. First and foremost. That's the reason I've gone with a Top 4 scoring. There are a bunch of the players that I'm friends with that can't make it out to many events, so putting a cap on the number of contributing points allows them a chance to qualify for the finals.
I'm happy with Top 4 and that's not changing. I think it's a nice balance for both casual players and people that are there all the time.
The Finals are a nice way to end off the year with an event for the people that have done well that year. I'm fully expecting there'll be a year that I'm only a TD for the event.
To date 99 seperate people have come though my doors and played poker, (which is awesome!) and whether they came for one event or all eleven this year, everyone's welcome at my tables and at the Final Event (assuming they qualify).
To return us back to the topic, one complaint I did hear repeatedly was that the blinds get too high near the end of a tournament. I'd like to fix this, but we can't have the time go any longer. (It's already at it's limit)
(ASIDE: My personal view is that a tournament, unless running 8-10 hours will always have this problem, as the time in lower levels is too short to allow the natural progression of "hands that must go all in".
SUPER-ASIDE: I'm think that the concept of "All-in Hands per hour" would be an excellent advanced topic for the post I made on predicting how long tournaments will take.)
Here are some suggestions on how to address this, post your thoughts...
i) Reduce the max number of players back to 24. By taking 1/4 of the chips out of the play, we can increase the length of the blinds, and increase the playability. I'm sure this will be a popular option.
ii) Change the current by-in standard from $20 = $4000 chips to $20 = $5000. For a full tournament this adds $32,000 to the tables. The tournaments have been ending around the 2k-4k level which means that this only added 8 BB's to the end game, but adds a lot more play to the beginning.
iii) Cap the blinds. Theoretically, I love this idea as we saw it play out well during the grudge matches. (We capped blinds when there were 100BBs in play total. If we apply this to our events, this would mean that the cap would be the 32 x 4,000 / 100 = 1,280 ~= 600-1,200 (200) level. Practically, this means that tournaments could run til 6 in the morning.
iv) Other suggestions..?
Mark
It runs late, but I think that only really hurts you, since it's your house. We all know the commitment of a MTT that starts at 7PM.
So what if the FT is an all-in fest. Play well (or lucky) and you'll have the chips to stay alive.
Honestly, I know that you are always looking for improvements, but I think that things are pretty good as is. You still are the King of Low-Limits in KW! (with g2 and beanie as your Princes) Keep up the great work, I know I'm looking forward to '07!
And '08, '09, etc.
Johnnie
/g2
The heads up does tend to be an all-in fest. It's like the WPT final tables and don't get Phil Gordon upset!
How to fix it? No idea. Should it be fixed? Yes. But don't ask me how. Perhaps when it does get heads up scale the blinds back? Cap them at 500/1000?
Anyway, no matter what you do, I will always be there to play.
Thanks for running the best tournaments in town.
G2, I wuv u man! :biggrin:
Keep Wed. night Bristol events as they are.
In the middle of the week, the tourni MUST end at some point. I don't mind being tired, but it seems that focus might shift to wether I will be able to play based on IF I make it heads-up, only to play for another three hours.
4000 starting chips is a good number. The low chip stacks force action. More chips mean more waiting for premium hands. (How each individual defines "premium hands" is up for debate. Myself included. )
One thing which has not been addressed, but will probably come up, is deal making and PoY points.
Can PoY points be offered as a part of the deal? I should say "no". Here's a hypothetical situation:
I've made Heads-up this Wed. I need the points, but I Really need sleep. (Typical end at Bristol has become later than 1:30am)
So I prepose a deal. I take 2nd place w/prize money. My opponent takes 1st w/prize money. But the points don't matter to Opponent, who is now gaurenteed entry into the Finals, so s/he gives Me 1st place points to allow me to take the PoY. (Assuming that Zithal would let the deal go down.)
End result: a somewhat cheap way into greater points for PoY. Only "Somewhat cheap" because I would have made it to the top 2.
My suggestion: If a deal is made, it's for money only. PoY points would be given out based on how many people are in the deal.
ie. the above situation: Two people in the deal, both people get 2nd place points, since no clear winner has been established. (3 people= all players get 3rd place pnts. & etc.)
Hope this makes sense. Any thoughts?
Tye
But I would never chop a Bristol... I'm always going for the win!
/g2
stp
I haven't considered what deal making could do for points. No one's ever taken or made a deal at Bristol as the stakes we play ain't exactly life changing.
How about this; If a deal is struck, none of the remaining players receive any PoY points and no seat in the Grand Final is awarded.
I think I'll shoot for a few more Friday tournament. For most of us, this would allow the game to go on a little longer without concern of the next morning and cash games and side tournaments would be able to run a little longer.
I'm also thinking we need to hold an Elimination Blackjack Tournament (not for points) sometime in 2007.
I can't see myself doing it either, but new players don't always see things the same way.
Just thought I would try to avoid a potential headache.
I should have read the "Heads-Up" thread. Rob proposed something similar to the remaining players, although the situation is different.
Tye
Actually, unless my memory is failing me (I am a year older so it is possible
And I think they may be the only 2 former regulars who play less Bristols than I do at this point
As far as the actual purpose of the thread, I think the website would be a great idea. Even something like what was created for the KWSOP would probably come in very handy.
Personally, I enjoy playing deeper stacked tourneys, but on a weeknight with 4 tables to start that is going to be tough for the final table. Even the locals are going to have a hard time staying that late a lot of the time, but for out of town people like myself, I can't really justify coming into KW to play until 2AM (unlikely since I am clearly not good at poker) and then driving home to be at work early in the morning.
I know the main goal should always be to please the players who are there most, but extending the tourney on a weeknight would kill most of the out of town action. Obviously this wouldn't apply as much of a Friday or Saturday since the mornings aren't exactly the same stress, and the breakfast run after a night of poker is always good for some hilarity. I have likely not laughed as hard as I did during breakfast of the Bender.
And as I ramble on, now that the Bender has crossed my mind again, do you have any plans to run something like that again? Maybe a different cause, but if it's going to happen, I'M IN. I'll pay now if I have to
Brad
High Hand Jackpots!
If a tournament is being played for points, there will also be five high-hand jackpots available to be won. At the start of the tournament, $2 will be collected from anyone wanting to participate and participation is optional.
The money collected is split between the five jackpots and the amount of the jackpot will be posted on a white board in the room. If you hit one of the hands, you win the jackpot! I want these to get paid out on a semi-regular basis, so the requirements are a little relaxed..
- The hand must go to showdown.
- At least one of the cards must come from your holecards.
(Do we need to be more specific on anything here? ie. For Quads, one of the hole cards must be on of the 4 of a kind., if 2 str8 flushes hit in the same hand, only the higher one wins, with the exception of AK v. 89, board TJQ)
The five jackpots are; Royal Flush, Straight Flush, Quad A->Q, Quad J->8, Quad 7->2.
Thoughts?
It's looking like next week will open the 2007 Season, so I'll make a final announcement of changes very soon!