I'll give you an example this weekend when I laid down AA.....
1/2NL at Fallsview....preflop I raise to 12 bucks (this was standard big card raise at this table). Â Big stack calls me so right away I put him on somewhat a decent hand.....we go headsup....
Flop comes 986....two spades and possible straight draw.....I bet out 15bucks, and big stack goes over the top 45.....now right away I pause before I even look at my chips.....
First thing I think of in these situations is what does he put me on (AK, big pair, etc)
Next thing I think of is what would he be calling (or what is he capable of calling a big raise with....pretty much the same as above unless he is a maniac)
Then I look at the board...in this case there is a straight draw and flush draw out there....but I can narrow him down very quickly to the following hands 10/10-KK....A-rag suited but not a straight.....but after playing with him for a bit, I know he would have raised me again with J's or higher preflop to take control of the hand and he doesn't play A-rag....so the only thing i put him on is a mid pair...which turns out to be what is on the flop
I laid down my aces...turns out he had 99....
He later asked me how I was able to lay down AA as he has seen many people go broke with that same situation...my response "i am not many people" Â
But really reading the texture of the board and your opponent will give you all the information you need to lay down AA....
Some players can't get rid of pocket aces... any advise when you should lay down your pocket rocket?
:h: Cindy
When the police pull you over?
Seriously, there are a huge number of variables at play. If the stacks are deep enough and if you have a good enough read on your opponent to know what kind of cards they could call you with pre-flop, it is possible, albeit difficult. If you are multi-handed with a scary flop and get lots of action, chances are you are behind or are about to get sucked out on. Esp on Stars.
Seriously, there are a huge number of variables at play. If the stacks are deep enough and if you have a good enough read on your opponent to know what kind of cards they could call you with pre-flop, it is possible, albeit difficult. If you are multi-handed with a scary flop and get lots of action, chances are you are behind or are about to get sucked out on. Esp on Stars.
When pkrfce bets 295 into a pot that 300 and the board show KQ9 of spades and your aces are red.
I always try to remember that I only have a pair of Aces after the flop if I dont improve. I would not dump my whole stack with just a pair of aces - so why is it different if they are both in my hand.
As far as folding them face up - I generally do not do that anymore - only because I like to know a player can fold AA. If they can lay it down I am more likely to make bluff- raise on flush and str8 scare cards because I know they will lay down big cards
My number one recommendation is playing them correct preflop. Make sure your bet will give you information on what the other player may be holding. So many ppl min raise and get pissed when they are beat by Q-9o hitting two pair on the flop. If you dont bet them properly you are putting yourself in a situation to win a small pot or lose a big one.
Play them hard preflop and know when your one pair is no good on the flop.
blackmagic, don't hurt yourself while patting yourself on the back
LOL....i'll try not too.....but at 5:30am on a Sunday morning...I have to give myself some credit for playing that well after a night of VIP at Dragonfly.....
Play em fast and hard and you shouldnt ever have to lay em down.
You can also lay em down in MTT with something like 4+ all ins before you, and say 2 or more have you covered. You're Aces aren't gonna be that strong with so many hands going up against em.
Play em fast and hard and you shouldnt ever have to lay em down.
You can also lay em down in MTT with something like 4+ all ins before you, and say 2 or more have you covered. You're Aces aren't gonna be that strong with so many hands going up against em.
You're kidding right?? Without getting into a huge debate about laying down AA preflop,
do you really believe that playing AA fast will make them never get cracked?
Or is that just because you're raising so much that you're pot committed and never have the chance to lay them down?
You can also lay em down in MTT with something like 4+ all ins before you, and say 2 or more have you covered. You're Aces aren't gonna be that strong with so many hands going up against em.
and since we're piling on, this is about the worst advice i've heard on the subject unless you are David Sklansky in the final 5 of WSOP
Lol obviously you will get cracked, nothing stopping them from flop a straight/flush set etc. but i'm just saying too many people (noobs) slow play aces thinking they have the nuts, and it's gets them in trouble. Guess I shouldn't have said you shouldn't ever have to lay em down.
And no, you CAN lay down Aces pre flop if there are 4+ allins and they have you covered. You aren't more than 50% to win the hand. You can call based on pot odds, but if you're in a MTT and you wanna survive and get your money in the midle with the odds to win the hand, then you can fold aces in that situation.
And no, you CAN lay down Aces pre flop if there are 4+ allins and they have you covered. You aren't more than 50% to win the hand. You can call based on pot odds, but if you're in a MTT and you wanna survive and get your money in the midle with the odds to win the hand, then you can fold aces in that situation.
nope. i'm playing to win and i couldn't ask for anything better than a 50% chance at quadrupling.
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 50.8353 % 50.77% 00.07% { AA }
Hand 2: 16.7847 % 16.72% 00.07% { KK }
Hand 3: 13.5415 % 13.47% 00.07% { QQ }
Hand 4: 18.8385 % 18.77% 00.07% { 98s }
I agree that it is horrible advice. With pot odds of at least 4-to-1 and odds of winning of close to 1-to-1, calling with A-A should be a no-brainer. Using pkrfce9's example and assuming you have $1,000 in chips left,
EV = [(1,000 * 4) * 0.426] - (1,000 * 0.574) = +$1,130.
I am willing to bet pkrfce9 that Sklansky et al would also call in that WSOP situation. Since he is already in the money as the final five, he will maximize his equity by going for the win. To quote Harrington, "make the best play with the idea of maximizing your equity in the hand, and let your final placing in the tournament take care of itself." You can prove it mathematically by using your own example and the WSOP prize structure (or offer CPF bucks so I can prove it later ).
The only situations that I can think of where folding A-A pre-flop may be correct would be the following:
- multi-qualifier satellite
- you are right on the money bubble
- you are so short-stacked against the other finalists with very little chance of winning so you just want to move up the prize ladder.
Sklansky gave ONE situation where to do anything but fold pocket aces would be wrong. In his extreme example, if you are the shortest stack with only 1.5%-3% of the other stacks, then it is obvious (to both of us) that you should fold A-A against the other three all-ins and move up the prize ladder. This situation is similar to the thread where you offered CPF $ for the best analysis that folding A-A would be correct, and I won.
However, let's modify Sklansky's extreme example with a more realistic scenario. Say I had $700,000 in chips (instead of 30,000 as in Sklansky's example); the chip leader pkrfce9 has $2 million and DrTyore, TNORTH and compuease have exactly $1 million each in the final five of the WPT NAPC. The prize money distribution is: 1st - $1.5 million, 2nd - $1 million, 3rd - $700,000, 4th - $500,000 and 5th - $300,000. DrTyore, TNORTH and compuease all move all-in with their $1 millions stacks. Barring an unlikely tie, I will be guaranteed to win at least $700,000 in the top three.
If I play my pocket aces and lose, I am paid for fifth place only or $300,000. If I play the aces and win, I would find myself in a three-way situation (barring ties) having $2.8 million for the chip lead against pkrfce9's $2 million stack and DrTyore's $600,000 (assuming he wins the side pot). So to play aces means I have thrown away $400,000 maybe ~40% of the time, while the other 60% of the time, I have virtually guaranteed myself at least a $300,000 gain for second place and over 50% chance to remain at first and gain $800,000. Here is a reasonable EV approximation for this scenario:
EV = -$400,000 * 40% + 60% * [(0 * 10%) + ($300,000 * 30%) + ($800,000 * 60%)]
= -$160,000 + 60% * $570,000
= +$182,000
By playing the aces instead of folding, my expected winnings is $882,000!
Sklansky would definitely play his aces in the above and other non-extreme scenarios. In fact, as he states in the book, the extra book sales a World Championship would give him might swing the decision to a call even in his extreme example.
Say I had $700,000 in chips (instead of 30,000 as in Sklansky's example); the chip leader pkrfce9 has $2 million and DrTyore, TNORTH and compuease have exactly $1 million each in the final five of the WPT NAPC. The prize money distribution is: 1st - $1.5 million, 2nd - $1 million, 3rd - $700,000, 4th - $500,000 and 5th - $300,000. DrTyore, TNORTH and compuease all move all-in with their $1 millions stacks. Barring an unlikely tie, I will be guaranteed to win at least $700,000 in the top three.
Well obviously I have the 2 jokers here and win a big pot. All math calulations aside, except for perhaps a satellite prize where the top 4 places all get the same reward, I can't imagine ever folding pocket A's preflop. No way, no how!
Lol~~~~ guys,...
I'm not disagreeing wiht pott ods. Im saying, if you asa a player want to makeit as far as possible and want to get your money in over 50%tyhen you can fold. I perosnally would calle cause 40% withg 5:1 odds is sick. But if iyts like WSOP main event and you wanna make it far and dont care aboutm odds then you CAN fold. Id make the call
Lol~~~~ guys,...
I'm not disagreeing wiht pott ods. Im saying, if you asa a player want to makeit as far as possible and want to get your money in over 50%tyhen you can fold. I perosnally would calle cause 40% withg 5:1 odds is sick. But if iyts like WSOP main event and you wanna make it far and dont care aboutm odds then you CAN fold. Id make the call
When you enter WSOP, your object should not to be to merely 'go far'. What is the point of busting out at the bubble? You want to get into the serious money. Quintupling here is the best chance to do that. If your AA get cracked, join the cash game against all the donks busting out with their favourite hand against AA. Granted, some people don't want to have to tell their friends they busted out early but those people don't have a serious chance to win it, either. And just think of the incredible bad beat story they can tell their friends.
Comments
2. When you get out-turned.
3. When you get rivered.
LMFAO.
Basically, when you know that you're behind.
And if you're last to act, always fold them face up.
Johnnie
1/2NL at Fallsview....preflop I raise to 12 bucks (this was standard big card raise at this table). Â Big stack calls me so right away I put him on somewhat a decent hand.....we go headsup....
Flop comes 986....two spades and possible straight draw.....I bet out 15bucks, and big stack goes over the top 45.....now right away I pause before I even look at my chips.....
First thing I think of in these situations is what does he put me on (AK, big pair, etc)
Next thing I think of is what would he be calling (or what is he capable of calling a big raise with....pretty much the same as above unless he is a maniac)
Then I look at the board...in this case there is a straight draw and flush draw out there....but I can narrow him down very quickly to the following hands 10/10-KK....A-rag suited but not a straight.....but after playing with him for a bit, I know he would have raised me again with J's or higher preflop to take control of the hand and he doesn't play A-rag....so the only thing i put him on is a mid pair...which turns out to be what is on the flop
I laid down my aces...turns out he had 99....
He later asked me how I was able to lay down AA as he has seen many people go broke with that same situation...my response "i am not many people" Â
But really reading the texture of the board and your opponent will give you all the information you need to lay down AA....
Seriously, there are a huge number of variables at play. If the stacks are deep enough and if you have a good enough read on your opponent to know what kind of cards they could call you with pre-flop, it is possible, albeit difficult. If you are multi-handed with a scary flop and get lots of action, chances are you are behind or are about to get sucked out on. Esp on Stars.
When pkrfce bets 295 into a pot that 300 and the board show KQ9 of spades and your aces are red.
I always try to remember that I only have a pair of Aces after the flop if I dont improve. I would not dump my whole stack with just a pair of aces - so why is it different if they are both in my hand.
As far as folding them face up - I generally do not do that anymore - only because I like to know a player can fold AA. If they can lay it down I am more likely to make bluff- raise on flush and str8 scare cards because I know they will lay down big cards
My number one recommendation is playing them correct preflop. Make sure your bet will give you information on what the other player may be holding. So many ppl min raise and get pissed when they are beat by Q-9o hitting two pair on the flop. If you dont bet them properly you are putting yourself in a situation to win a small pot or lose a big one.
Play them hard preflop and know when your one pair is no good on the flop.
LOL....i'll try not too.....but at 5:30am on a Sunday morning...I have to give myself some credit for playing that well after a night of VIP at Dragonfly.....
You can also lay em down in MTT with something like 4+ all ins before you, and say 2 or more have you covered. You're Aces aren't gonna be that strong with so many hands going up against em.
You're kidding right?? Without getting into a huge debate about laying down AA preflop,
do you really believe that playing AA fast will make them never get cracked?
Or is that just because you're raising so much that you're pot committed and never have the chance to lay them down?
And no, you CAN lay down Aces pre flop if there are 4+ allins and they have you covered. You aren't more than 50% to win the hand. You can call based on pot odds, but if you're in a MTT and you wanna survive and get your money in the midle with the odds to win the hand, then you can fold aces in that situation.
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 50.8353 % 50.77% 00.07% { AA }
Hand 2: 16.7847 % 16.72% 00.07% { KK }
Hand 3: 13.5415 % 13.47% 00.07% { QQ }
Hand 4: 18.8385 % 18.77% 00.07% { 98s }
nope. i'm playing to win and i couldn't ask for anything better than a 40+% chance at quintupling
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2100463
pokenum -h ah ad - kc ks - qh qc - 8c 7c - td js
Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Ah 362046 42.56 487589 57.32 1033 0.12 0.426
Ks Kc 143309 16.85 706326 83.03 1033 0.12 0.169
Qc Qh 110084 12.94 739551 86.94 1033 0.12 0.130
8c 7c 154766 18.19 694869 81.69 1033 0.12 0.182
Js Td 79430 9.34 770205 90.54 1033 0.12 0.094
I'd just like to point out that 78 is the most likely hand to crack it.
Mark
EV = [(1,000 * 4) * 0.426] - (1,000 * 0.574) = +$1,130.
I am willing to bet pkrfce9 that Sklansky et al would also call in that WSOP situation. Since he is already in the money as the final five, he will maximize his equity by going for the win. To quote Harrington, "make the best play with the idea of maximizing your equity in the hand, and let your final placing in the tournament take care of itself." You can prove it mathematically by using your own example and the WSOP prize structure (or offer CPF bucks so I can prove it later
The only situations that I can think of where folding A-A pre-flop may be correct would be the following:
- multi-qualifier satellite
- you are right on the money bubble
- you are so short-stacked against the other finalists with very little chance of winning so you just want to move up the prize ladder.
However, let's modify Sklansky's extreme example with a more realistic scenario. Say I had $700,000 in chips (instead of 30,000 as in Sklansky's example); the chip leader pkrfce9 has $2 million and DrTyore, TNORTH and compuease have exactly $1 million each in the final five of the WPT NAPC.
If I play my pocket aces and lose, I am paid for fifth place only or $300,000. If I play the aces and win, I would find myself in a three-way situation (barring ties) having $2.8 million for the chip lead against pkrfce9's $2 million stack and DrTyore's $600,000 (assuming he wins the side pot). So to play aces means I have thrown away $400,000 maybe ~40% of the time, while the other 60% of the time, I have virtually guaranteed myself at least a $300,000 gain for second place and over 50% chance to remain at first and gain $800,000. Here is a reasonable EV approximation for this scenario:
EV = -$400,000 * 40% + 60% * [(0 * 10%) + ($300,000 * 30%) + ($800,000 * 60%)]
= -$160,000 + 60% * $570,000
= +$182,000
By playing the aces instead of folding, my expected winnings is $882,000!
Sklansky would definitely play his aces in the above and other non-extreme scenarios. In fact, as he states in the book, the extra book sales a World Championship would give him might swing the decision to a call even in his extreme example.
HAHAHA...of course it would!
Only because Q10 wasn't in the list.
/g2
Ah Ad = 49.18%
Kc Ks = 16.86%
Qc Qd = 6.65%
8c 7c= 20.20%
Qs 10d= 6.08%
Dude..you're dominated!
mark, i included 87s just for you.
jeff, you are way too dogmatic. you must learn to let go.
I'm not disagreeing wiht pott ods. Im saying, if you asa a player want to makeit as far as possible and want to get your money in over 50%tyhen you can fold. I perosnally would calle cause 40% withg 5:1 odds is sick. But if iyts like WSOP main event and you wanna make it far and dont care aboutm odds then you CAN fold. Id make the call