Poker Blacklist?

trigs

Recently, there's been a few articles about high stakes pros calling out cheaters and complaining how nothing is really being done to them. Here's the most recent article I've read:

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2022/04/chance-kornuth-alex-foxen-poker-blacklist-41070.htm

There are some players that are now calling for a collective poker blacklist. What do you guys think about this?

Some issues/questions to consider:

What technically constitutes cheating that would result in a blacklist punishment?
Who is responsible for judging someone as a cheat? Should there be an official review committee or something along those lines?
How much evidence is required to prove cheating has taken place?
How long should a player be blacklisted? Should there be a time limit or should it be forever?
Should cheating online affect playing live and vice versa?

I do think it is very strange how poker players (more specifically pro players) basically "forgive" known cheaters all the time. I'm under the impression that if any of us caught a cheater in our home game at the very least this person would be banned from all future games, and perhaps at the most they'd be walking with a limp for the rest of their lives.

Basically all other competitions (or sports or whatever) will punish and/or banned cheaters, but in poker it's almost always kept quiet and/or just ignored for some reason.

Some well known pro cheaters who are still welcome to play and still get invites to poker tournaments to this day:

Chino Reem
Men Nguyen
Chris Ferguson/Howard Lederer
Dan Cates
Brian Hastings
Ali Imsirovic
Jake Schindler

martinmc13

Even though it seems like cheating should be a pretty black in white issue, it gets grey pretty quickly. For solely for the purposes of discussion here’s my devils advocate response.

How does one define cheating? When it comes to RTA, that can be anything from a GTO solver making every decision, to a standard HUD, to preflop charts. I think I could make valid arguments that all of those things cheating, but HUDs and preflop charts are considered completely acceptable to many players.

What about collusion? Obviously soft playing and sharing hole card information is cheating, but what about swapping or selling pieces? Being able to withstand variance without tilting off all your chips is an important skill. Again, there is a valid argument that people who sell or swap pieces have an unfair advantage of those who don’t.

So the real question becomes who gets put on the list. I noticed your list includes Lederer and Ferguson (I am by no means attempting to defend anyone involved with Fulltilt), but I don’t recall them ever cheating, just stealing. So if that’s the standard, do we ban anyone every accused of theft? Should other crimes be included? Is a criminal conviction required? As far as I know no one involved with Fulltilt was ever charged. What about cheating at other casino games? Edge sorting? Card counting? What about someone who participates in unethical business practices? Or money laundering? Or countless other unsavory activities that could be likened to cheating.

MrCaspan

Also why is Mike Postle not on here!! Do you have to be convicted or just accused with enough evidence?

trigs

martinmc13;c-422009 wrote
Even though it seems like cheating should be a pretty black in white issue, it gets grey pretty quickly. For solely for the purposes of discussion here’s my devils advocate response.

How does one define cheating? When it comes to RTA, that can be anything from a GTO solver making every decision, to a standard HUD, to preflop charts. I think I could make valid arguments that all of those things cheating, but HUDs and preflop charts are considered completely acceptable to many players.

What about collusion? Obviously soft playing and sharing hole card information is cheating, but what about swapping or selling pieces? Being able to withstand variance without tilting off all your chips is an important skill. Again, there is a valid argument that people who sell or swap pieces have an unfair advantage of those who don’t.

So the real question becomes who gets put on the list. I noticed your list includes Lederer and Ferguson (I am by no means attempting to defend anyone involved with Fulltilt), but I don’t recall them ever cheating, just stealing. So if that’s the standard, do we ban anyone every accused of theft? Should other crimes be included? Is a criminal conviction required? As far as I know no one involved with Fulltilt was ever charged. What about cheating at other casino games? Edge sorting? Card counting? What about someone who participates in unethical business practices? Or money laundering? Or countless other unsavory activities that could be likened to cheating.

Exactly. What is considered cheating is one of the big questions that would have to be specifically defined in order to have a blacklist. I don't know if everyone could agree on the parameters. That's the reason I included Federer and Ferguson. Where does the line "cheating in poker" end?

trigs

MrCaspan;c-422010 wroteAlso why is Mike Postle not on here!! Do you have to be convicted or just accused with enough evidence?

Postle could have been on here. Russ Hamilton perhaps. Annie Duke perhaps. That's another question that would be needed to be answered. How much evidence is required to "prove" cheating has occurred? Would there be a trial of some kind? Or just a group of arbitrators who we just all agree with whatever they decide?

BlondeFish

I'm surprised the biggest cheater of them all that I have been posting about on Facebook has not been mentioned. He is #1 on the all-time money list with over U$57 million in live winnings. Watch Doug Polk's insane video podcast, including Kenney wanting his big stable of cheaters to put the Kambo frog poison on a blister (trying for ego death) & put LSD acid on their eye!

All these cheaters have stolen millions from the global poker community. It is not safe to play online, when he or other top pros will collude or take over his horses' play whenever they get deep in an online tournament. The stable includes players from the Toronto area.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2Q-Uk6OKdgpt3Zn6uJXX_A
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2022/04/bryn-kenney-martin-zamani-cheating-accusations-41076.htm

trigs

BlondeFish;c-422015 wroteI'm surprised the biggest cheater of them all that I have been posting about on Facebook has not been mentioned. He is #1 on the all-time money list with over U$57 million in live winnings. Watch Doug Polk's insane video podcast, including Kenney wanting his big stable of cheaters to put the Kambo frog poison on a blister (trying for ego death) & put LSD acid on their eye!

All these cheaters have stolen millions from the global poker community. It is not safe to play online, when he or other top pros will collude or take over his horses' play whenever they get deep in an online tournament. The stable includes players from the Toronto area.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2Q-Uk6OKdgpt3Zn6uJXX_A
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2022/04/bryn-kenney-martin-zamani-cheating-accusations-41076.htm

Yes, there's a bunch of videos just coming out now about Kenney and his "cult" of horses. Again, apparently this has been known for a while but no one has wanted to say anything.

Pretty scary that Kenney (#1 all time money winner) and Imsirovic (#1 on PokerGo yearly rankings) are both known cheaters. Definitely suggests that online cheating is extremely rampant.

martinmc13

Don’t forget #2 on the all time money list is also an admitted cheater.

I find the RTA stuff pretty interesting. You have to assume a lot these guys are are using it at the top level, which means they’re really just losing the rake.

I also don’t really know where to rank it on my patented “Scale of Cheating Severity.” If 1 is semi harmless angle shooting and 10 is being able to see everyone’s hole cards, is RTA a 7 or 8? It feels like it shouldn’t in the same category as super using, but if the end result is being unbeatable, I guess it should be.

I’m lucky that I’m a big enough fish online that no one would even need to cheat against me.

For the record, I have been working on a live RTA program for Scarney, but so far it just tells me to play every hand.

thisORthat

I recall Mr Caspian stating that it's distasteful / poor manners / against etiquette to make such allegation.

I'm aboot to turn into Doug Polks pondercast but podcasts remain so called 'heresy'. One persons words pinned up against another.

edit1: spelling

edit2: how is people getting funny over money surprizing.
I'd be surprized if people were not thieving stunts.

BlondeFish

In addition to a bunch of videos with Bryn >:) & Daniel Negreanu, here is the latest video with the long-lost Joey Ingram & Doug Polk. <3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCUNqA9YrVg

MrCaspan

I love when Doug does these

thisORthat

MrCaspan;c-422039 wroteI love when Doug does these

Doubles as an investigative reporter - lol

trigs

MrCaspan;c-422039 wroteI love when Doug does these

I'm not a huge fan of Doug but he's entertaining.

thisORthat

trigs;c-422049 wrote
MrCaspan;c-422039 wroteI love when Doug does these
I'm not a huge fan of Doug but he's entertaining.

Entertaining, so this is tabloid level rumour mill type allegations?
If true baffling how there isn't legal repercussions; if only 'civil' prosecution?

If only for the 'theatre of game integrity'?

MrCaspan

There is the law and there is what you can prove. Its impossible to prove. But there is also somthing called a pattern of behaviour. Imagine going into a room and only you and a partner are in that room. You both come out with different stories. Who is telling the truth who is lying are both lying. But if you have done it 20 times and the other persons stories keep saying you did the same thing and none of the people knew the other stories. You can make a very easy judgement. There is no proof and no way to prove it in a court of law but you can very easily come to a informed decision. Its still not proof and its why they choose their words carefully.

thisORthat

MrCaspan;c-422069 wrote prove it in a court of law...

Civil courts (i.e. getting sued for example for libel) has different standards of conviction than criminal courts.
I'm by no means a legal expert. My knowledge is based on reading a few Wikipedia pages.

This situation seems to undermine ground gained for poker being a 'reputable means of earning a living'.
Tell people you play poker and they make size you up for being a dishonest salesman.

If you want to be 'respected' by society for being a liar become a lawyer?