Making a living at 1/2

kaipanoulias666

So I have been thinking a lot recently about poker, which is not out of the ordinary for me. One thing in particular is making a living at lower stakes B&M games.

Now I know a lot of people share the thought that it is an impossible feat to accomplish. The prior statement is reinforced frequently for me, because when the topic comes up at the tables everyone seems to agree.

I however do not.

Using 1/2 no limit as an example, you absolutely can make a living grinding low stakes. Most players probably won't like how its done, or are unable to do it. (Hence the "impossibility" of doing it.)

First off, you must play your tightest, most straightforward poker that is humanly possible. I am talking only playing the top 10% of hands, and only the top 5% from an early position. So you need to do a lot of folding. You need to focus only on playing the big edges if you want to make this happen. So avoid expensive draws, and play the nuts.

Playing ABC poker will win you money, a lot of money at these levels. Especially when mixed with basic poker psychology, hand reading, and tells.

But you also have to play in the loosest games you can find, and avoid strong players. (Easy to accomplish since I would estimate no more than 1 in 10 1/2 players are any good. And that is being generous.)

Now, on to the money.

I will use my own monthly nut for this example:$2,000 ($1,800 expense, $200 leisure.)

To earn $2,000 a month, you must average $12.50/hour, or 6.25bb/hour.

That sounds like a feat, however with the game played wrong by amature players it is actually a lowball goal.

Let's say the average raise is $10 preflop, with 3 callers.(lowball estimates if you ever play 1/2) that puts $40 in the pot right off of the bat. Now take away the rake, $5, and you get $35. Assuming 25 hands an hour, you will use $7.50 in blinds every hour. Now if you can average just that one pot an hour, $35-$7.50=$27.50 an hour. Which is $15/hour higher than necessary.

Now this is assuming you can snag one pot on the flop with these numbers per hour. In a loose game, these numbers can be much higher.

So, assuming you have a bankroll that can take the swings of the loose play in low stakes, you can make a living at it. As long as your monthly nut doesn't get to high, you are good to go.

And I know, higher stakes makes an easier living, but my point is how it is possible to grind a living at low stakes.

JohnnieH

I noticed your math doesn't include a tip for the dealer. If you don't tip on a regular basis, I guarantee you they will slow down and you will not get 25/hr.

trigs

obviously it is possible, just not highly likely.

i challenge you to try though. just start going to the casino once or twice a week for a few months and keep track of all those days separately. then crunch the numbers and see if you are in the positive enough to sustain yourself.

EDIT: and just out of curiosity, why does it have to be $1-$2? is it because that's where all the fish are you assume? i don't play in casinos very often at all but from what i've heard i really don't think that the difference between $1-$2 and $2-$5 is that significant.

kaipanoulias666

trigs;395291 wroteobviously it is possible, just not highly likely.

i challenge you to try though. just start going to the casino once or twice a week for a few months and keep track of all those days separately. then crunch the numbers and see if you are in the positive enough to sustain yourself.

EDIT: and just out of curiosity, why does it have to be $1-$2? is it because that's where all the fish are you assume? i don't play in casinos very often at all but from what i've heard i really don't think that the difference between $1-$2 and $2-$5 is that significant.

I used 1/2 because it is the lowest stakes you can usually find in a casino environment. You are also correct about 2/5 being incredibly fishy as well, but 1/2 is my example. You will easily make more at 2/5.(as the opening raises are much higher obviously)

And I actually did make a living at 1/2 a couple of years back for about 6 months. (I was still working, but I made enough to cover all expenses from poker in that time.) However, I was skilled enough to do it back then, I just did not manage my bankroll well and went broke. Had I knew then what I know now about bankroll management (and not blowing every cent I made partying outside of expenses) I would probably have been able to move to full on pro by now. Live and learn.

kaipanoulias666

JohnnieH;395276 wroteI noticed your math doesn't include a tip for the dealer. If you don't tip on a regular basis, I guarantee you they will slow down and you will not get 25/hr.

Thanks for pointing that out! I did miss the dealer tip, so turn that $27.50 into $26.50 ($1 per pot is standard tip). Doesn't really change much though.

djgolfcan

Good for you on living on $12.50 an hour. I couldn't do it. Not with a mortgage, kids in college, kids getting married, etc...
I assume this means you don't pay taxes on your winnings as well.

kaipanoulias666

djgolfcan;395297 wroteGood for you on living on $12.50 an hour. I couldn't do it. Not with a mortgage, kids in college, kids getting married, etc...
I assume this means you don't pay taxes on your winnings as well.

In that time I was actually averaging $18-$22/ hour.(not sure where my logs are for that time, but it was in the $20 range.) The $12.50 referred to in my post is the minimum hourly required to clear $2,000/month.

And in that time period I was not declaring winnings since I was also working full-time, and not in "the business of gambling" as the tax people say. Which is hard enough to prove for em even if it was my sole income.(a few cases that have been in court have ruled that even an obvious professional was not seen as such. Basically seen as an enthusiast in the courts eyes, and not working because of gambling wins was equated to having to work more due to gambling losses.)

But I do see your point that $12.50 is definitely not a good enough number to support everything you stated.

kwsteve

You might be able to do it for a while. I just think it would be real hard to keep interest in it, grinding 40+ hrs a week at the tables, more if you have a losing streak. Takes real dedication that most people don't have.

Note I'm assuming that you're remaining profitable the whole time, just grinding more and more hours to make up for losses. It's much easier to get a $15/hr job and get paid for overtime.

You might be able to do it for a while. But then the time will come when you're in the 25th hr of the session and you're stuck $400. You're tired, and should leave, but the table is weak and there are 3-4 big stacks that are ripe for the picking. You decide to stay but you need a pick-me-up. So you take a sniff of cocaine. >:D You go back to the table and clean up, and now you got a new main man: cocaine! >:D

So, yeah, give it a try. It should work out well for you. :'(

compuease

Get an education, learn a trade.. $20. an hr is bare starting minimum... 1/2 making a "living"... wow, must be very young <23 right?

I bet the $20. an hr you made at 1/2 was not over a significant sample size or you didn't track carefully enough.. Talking 2-3 years back to the young regs at Niagara they would admit that none of them were really making a living at 1/2, just supplementing income from another source... As I recall the "best of them figured $15. an hour was max over a long period of time.

Where do you play?

trigs

kaipanoulias666;395293 wroteI used 1/2 because it is the lowest stakes you can usually find in a casino environment. You are also correct about 2/5 being incredibly fishy as well, but 1/2 is my example. You will easily make more at 2/5.(as the opening raises are much higher obviously)

And I actually did make a living at 1/2 a couple of years back for about 6 months. (I was still working, but I made enough to cover all expenses from poker in that time.) However, I was skilled enough to do it back then, I just did not manage my bankroll well and went broke. Had I knew then what I know now about bankroll management (and not blowing every cent I made partying outside of expenses) I would probably have been able to move to full on pro by now. Live and learn.

Wait a minute. So according to you, you have already done this...? So why the thread arguing it's possible. Just post your numbers/finances of actually doing it. Next time I'd suggest starting the argument with that first.

kaipanoulias666

kwsteve;395300 wroteYou might be able to do it for a while. I just think it would be real hard to keep interest in it, grinding 40+ hrs a week at the tables, more if you have a losing streak. Takes real dedication that most people don't have.

Note I'm assuming that you're remaining profitable the whole time, just grinding more and more hours to make up for losses. It's much easier to get a $15/hr job and get paid for overtime.

You might be able to do it for a while. But then the time will come when you're in the 25th hr of the session and you're stuck $400. You're tired, and should leave, but the table is weak and there are 3-4 big stacks that are ripe for the picking. You decide to stay but you need a pick-me-up. So you take a sniff of cocaine. >:D You go back to the table and clean up, and now you got a new main man: cocaine! >:D

So, yeah, give it a try. It should work out well for you. :'(

I agree that it is a grind, and takes a lot of dedication to pull off. I enjoy the long grind sessions, and am completely in love with the game. I could probably do 100+ hours a week and be drained and dead and still be in love with poker. Unlike most people, I have been into and playing poker since I was a young lad, and I enjoy every aspect of the game. Yes, cold decks included.

And during my time consistently grinding 1/2 for marathon sessions, cocaine really helped to perk me up. :P hence the lack of bankroll kept from that period. Also didn't help going on aggro tilt at times. Cocaine is a hell of a drug. Lol

kaipanoulias666

trigs;395302 wroteWait a minute. So according to you, you have already done this...? So why the thread arguing it's possible. Just post your numbers/finances of actually doing it. Next time I'd suggest starting the argument with that first.

Because this was more of a discussion of the possibility, and what is necessary to accomplish it. That, and I am not sure where my old books are. Ha-ha

kaipanoulias666

compuease;395301 wroteGet an education, learn a trade.. $20. an hr is bare starting minimum... 1/2 making a "living"... wow, must be very young <23 right?

I bet the $20. an hr you made at 1/2 was not over a significant sample size or you didn't track carefully enough.. Talking 2-3 years back to the young regs at Niagara they would admit that none of them were really making a living at 1/2, just supplementing income from another source... As I recall the "best of them figured $15. an hour was max over a long period of time.

Where do you play?

At the time it was river rock in Richmond, and no it wasn't a large sample (6 months) however I have faith that it could have continued well if I saved more as bankroll, and less for everything else I was getting in to.

And even topping $15 an hour is pretty good considering my current job pays barely more than that and I get by fine.

Also, 26 going on 27. Your read was a little off, but good try ;P

compuease

kaipanoulias666;395323 wrote And during my time consistently grinding 1/2 for marathon sessions, cocaine really helped to perk me up. :P hence the lack of bankroll kept from that period. Also didn't help going on aggro tilt at times. Cocaine is a hell of a drug. Lol

I see the problem... ;)

kaipanoulias666;395325 wroteAt the time it was river rock in Richmond, and no it wasn't a large sample (6 months) however I have faith that it could have continued well if I saved more as bankroll, and less for everything else I was getting in to.

And even topping $15 an hour is pretty good considering my current job pays barely more than that and I get by fine.

Also, 26 going on 27. Your read was a little off, but good try ;P

Low ambitions if $15. is pretty good, especially in Van..

Read might have been a bit off physically but I was referring to maturity level..

kaipanoulias666

compuease;395326 wroteI see the problem... ;)

Low ambitions if $15. is pretty good, especially in Van..

Read might have been a bit off physically but I was referring to maturity level..

Like I said, considering I make just over $15 doing something I despise to get by, $15 is good enough to do something I love. This is also just talking about the possibility of living off of 1/2 stakes. Of course with a roll I would play higher. But the point is it is possible playing 1/2.

And you are way way off if you are going by maturity level. I have been a cynical old man since I was a child. Haha

GTA Poker

If you can't make $30/h at 1/2 then don't even think of it...it all sounds terrible and sad though.

MickeyHoldem

You guys need to stop stepping on people's dreams!

compuease

mickeyholdem;395337 wroteyou guys need to stop stepping on people's fantasy's !

fyp...

although I knw you're just trying to protect a donor.. ;)

kaipanoulias666

MickeyHoldem;395337 wroteYou guys need to stop stepping on people's dreams!

I don't think it is so much stepping on people's dreams as it is failing to read the entire post, and understanding that it is just a post about the possibility of making a living at 1/2; and not a declaration of my intent to do so. Lol

kaipanoulias666

GTA Poker;395328 wroteIf you can't make $30/h at 1/2 then don't even think of it...it all sounds terrible and sad though.

If you can average $30/hour playing 1/2 over a huge sample size, you probably shouldn't think of moving up in stakes. That's a cushy living for low risk. Ha-ha Also, what sounds sad and terrible?