so...are we gonna talk about this? errrrr...

Milo

Easy for Hamas to avoid "mistakes" when they declare that every Jew is a legitimate target in their eyes. Sort simplifies the whole process, doesn't it?

I am getting off the merry-go-round at this point, feel free to go round on your own. I'll be back when Hamas finishes reloading (or Al Qaeda crosses into the Golan from Syria).

Mazel Tov.

kwsteve

So you don't even support Canada when it blames Israel for killing a Canadian? Good to know.

Milo

Never said that. Of COURSE Israel is to blame for that incident. It was their ordnance after all.

The report, released Jan. 31, blamed the Israeli Defence Forces for the incident, but also found the Israeli military refused to provide documents other than a summary of its own internal investigation, "which lacked sufficient detail to explore certain issues to their fullest extent." The report said the UN also refused to provide documents requested for the investigation.

From Wiki . . .

On 25 July 2006 four unarmed United Nations Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO) peacekeepers from Austria, China, Finland and Canada were killed in an Israeli air strike on a UN observation post in southern Lebanon. According to the UN, the four had taken shelter in a bunker under the post, which was a three story building inside a patrol base in Khiyam.[4] It had been shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery over a period of 6 hours. An Israeli plane then dropped a bomb, destroying the post. During the bombardment, the post called an Israeli liaison officer ten times to call off the bombardment. According to a UN official who had seen the preliminary report, an Israeli official promised to halt the bombing each time.[5] UN military personnel on the ground along the Israel-Lebanon border reported that the munitions hitting the UNTSO position were precision-guided.[6]
A UNIFIL rescue team was immediately dispatched to the scene. They recovered the bodies of three observers from the rubble under artillery fire from the IDF.[7] Attack in the vicinity continued as rescuers tried to reach those killed or injured, UNIFIL said. UNIFIL said there had been at least 14 incidents of fire close to the post since afternoon. Daniel Ayalon, Israel's ambassador to the United States, said that "UNIFIL obviously got caught in the middle" of a gunfight between Hezbollah guerillas and Israeli troops."We do not have yet confirmation what caused these deaths. It could be (Israel Defense Forces). It could be Hezbollah," he said.[8]

So, Israel is to blame . . . but, as in all things in war, it is never cut and dried as to the "why"?

[deleted]

lol milo

kwsteve

But I'm sure you never say things aren't "cut and dried" when Hamas attacks Israel. Things are pretty cut and dried then, right?

Sarkozy is pretty right wing himself, and even he is saying he can't trust Netanyahu.

trigs

» Watch: US Broadcaster Utterly Destroys Israel Apologist…With Logic

compuease

trigs;388477 wrote» Watch: US Broadcaster Utterly Destroys Israel Apologist…With Logic

I'm certainly not an Israeli apologist nor am I fan of some of their policies but that is plain and simply hogwash.. Hint: I also believe in a two state policy however launching rockets at random targets does little to help the situation, in fact gives Israel the excuse to move in at will..

I sometimes wonder who is in control in the Arab occupied lands, hint again: no one is.

trigs

compuease;388479 wroteI'm certainly not an Israeli apologist nor am I fan of some of their policies but that is plain and simply hogwash.. Hint: I also believe in a two state policy however launching rockets at random targets does little to help the situation, in fact gives Israel the excuse to move in at will..

I sometimes wonder who is in control in the Arab occupied lands, hint again: no one is.

lol yeah i figured this would get some people riled up.

EDIT: did you at least consider the links provided in the article though?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2013

compuease

trigs;388480 wrotelol yeah i figured this would get some people riled up.

Certainly not riled up but do you really believe that or are you just trying to sir this (old) pot? ;) FU Trigs!

trigs

compuease;388481 wroteCertainly not riled up but do you really believe that or are you just trying to sir this (old) pot? ;) FU Trigs!

i agree with the article in stating that the isreal-palestine issue is "a racist, colonial occupation." i agree with the article that "isreal is not defending itself - it is defending its occupation."

and i also enjoyed the amnesty international links with multiple examples of how isreal has continued to try and expand "their" land by "perpetuat[ing] ceaseless brutality upon those who don't belong" (i.e. the palestinians).

EDIT: i barely make it through the video clip, but i rarely even watch clips like that. i prefer to read and interpret myself.

compuease

Supposing I agree with your stated supposition, (and I don't) what is the difference with what the European explorers and colonists did to the NA Indian and Eskimo population? Answer me that.. Human existence is rife with examples over the millennia..

Milo

I like how he fails to answer her question, and immediately goes on to his tired anti-Israel tropes.

The caller asked how many missile launches were acceptable before counter attacks are warranted. Instead of answering he went off on a tangent against the State of Israel. That is not logic, it's talk radio crap that he would likely excoriate ANY American politician for doing.

As for the notion that the land is Israel's because their religion says so, lets destroy that myth right now . . . the land is Israel's because they fought a WAR over it and WON. You can debate the reasons behind that war all you want, but the bare bones of it is that Israel declared their independence, their neighbours tried to destroy their fledgling country (repeatedly), and they LOST.

Milo

And as for the land belonging to "the Palestinians" because they were living there before Israel declared independence, well, who was there before the Palestinians? And what about the people before them? You can go on and on in this manner ad infinitum in the Middle East, which is part of the problem.

Put simply, Israel staked their claim and have defended it by force of arms. The country is THERE. The only LOGICAL solution is to accept it's existence and move toward a peaceful, TWO STATE coexistence. Part of that solution would also have to involve the Arab nations that border Israel and the PA territories as they have all, to one degree or another, exacerbated the situation through their OWN less than stellar treatment of the Palestinians.

trigs

compuease;388484 wroteSupposing I agree with your stated supposition, (and I don't) what is the difference with what the European explorers and colonists did to the NA Indian and Eskimo population? Answer me that.. Human existence is rife with examples over the millennia..

generally there is no difference except that this colonization is happening in our modern times now after we have (or should have) a better understanding of what actions like this can do to another culture/race/group of people.

what europeans did to the native indians, for example, was simply horrible. it was a complete and utter tragedy in the true sense of the word. i've said this before (maybe not on this forum) but i don't understand how natives in north america can just walk around and act like everything is fine. i'd be outraged at how my entire culture and way of thinking was systematically destroyed forever.

now i acknowledge that the europeans thought they were helping the "savages" and possibly in a sense this can be argued, but it's a cop out plain and simple.

colonization is one of the most destructive forces in all of human history. entire civilizations have been completely decimated and we north americans are just as guilty of it as countries like isreal who are doing it now.

a solution for isreal-palestine is still possible i think at least - it's obviously not an easy solution and i don't think i have any great ideas, but it's possible.

in respect to north america and native peoples, i really don't know what to do. it may be too late now. giving some land back. giving tax breaks. all that crap is just a little band-aid solution to the overall issue. native peoples cannot get their complete culture back now. it's impossible because we greedy "civilized" people chewed it up and shit it back on their heads.

trigs

Milo;388485 wroteI like how he fails to answer her question, and immediately goes on to his tired anti-Israel tropes.

The caller asked how many missile launches were acceptable before counter attacks are warranted. Instead of answering he went off on a tangent against the State of Israel. That is not logic, it's talk radio crap that he would likely excoriate ANY American politician for doing.

As for the notion that the land is Israel's because their religion says so, lets destroy that myth right now . . . the land is Israel's because they fought a WAR over it and WON. You can debate the reasons behind that war all you want, but the bare bones of it is that Israel declared their independence, their neighbours tried to destroy their fledgling country (repeatedly), and they LOST.

so might makes right? i'm glad you aren't king of the world ;)

trigs

Milo;388486 wroteAnd as for the land belonging to "the Palestinians" because they were living there before Israel declared independence, well, who was there before the Palestinians? And what about the people before them? You can go on and on in this manner ad infinitum in the Middle East, which is part of the problem.

okay, this is kind of dumb. if their was another group that was there before the palestinians and they also were claiming their right to their land, then yes i think they would have some right to the land as well. since there isn't this argument is pretty pointless.

Put simply, Israel staked their claim and have defended it by force of arms. The country is THERE. The only LOGICAL solution is to accept it's existence and move toward a peaceful, TWO STATE coexistence. Part of that solution would also have to involve the Arab nations that border Israel and the PA territories as they have all, to one degree or another, exacerbated the situation through their OWN less than stellar treatment of the Palestinians.

i agree that this is the most peaceful solution to isreal coming in and killing everyone and taking their land. but why was isreal allowed to start a war and declare independence, but palestine (who is too poor to wage a proper war against isreal) is not allowed to fight and should just have to give up? aren't they entitled to fight for their land as well in whatever manner they see fit? are you saying that isreal won the land fairly but palestine is "cheating" or something in their attempt to reclaim it?

you do realize the hypocrisy of your statement?

trigs

spaghetti monster damn you milo. you suck me in every damn time... :D

Milo

Can you rephrase that? I mean, I like you and all, but there ARE limits . . .

Milo

trigs;388489 wroteokay, this is kind of dumb. if their was another group that was there before the palestinians and they also were claiming their right to their land, then yes i think they would have some right to the land as well. since there isn't this argument is pretty pointless.

Israel claims that "their" people were there first. This is where you bring religion back into it before I say that ethnic Jews, as opposed to religious Jews were there.

i agree that this is the most peaceful solution to isreal coming in and killing everyone and taking their land. but why was isreal allowed to start a war and declare independence, but palestine (who is too poor to wage a proper war against isreal) is not allowed to fight and should just have to give up? aren't they entitled to fight for their land as well in whatever manner they see fit? are you saying that isreal won the land fairly but palestine is "cheating" or something in their attempt to reclaim it?

you do realize the hypocrisy of your statement?

Israel did not start the war. They declared unilaterally that they were sovereign along specific boundaries. Their neighbours were the ones who declared war, along with forcing "their" Palestinian populations to move
elsewhere. That conveniently gets glossed over.

Well, if you are willing to say that the Palestinians are not cheating via the Intifada and other acts, then Israel is not cheating in defending themselves, and we are back to square one.

If it comes to a fight, Israel wins. That is why the rocket attacks are so stupid. All they do is give the extremists in Israel an excuse to fight back. Gandhi and MLK were better revolutionaries than Arafat.

Milo

And, with respect to colonialism, the entire Middle East was partitioned as part of the Post War treaty-fest. There was even a proposed "Palestinian" state next to the Jewish one. The Arabs, of course, rejected it.

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