Discuss, and let's fight... :)

Big Mike

To follow up: Eating doughnuts is legal. Buying cigarettes is regulated. Smoking marijuana is (almost) decriminalized. Buying cocaine is illegal.

DrTyore

Milo;373286 wroteAbortions can still be carried out in hospitals in NB. Pretty sure they have a few of those . . .

Fair enough - as long as the women in question seek and receive permission from two other doctors (statistically speaking one of whom would be male - isn't that ironic).

Mark

Milo

As for being a "good" person, I like to think that I qualify.

My main belief in an argument like this one is that "life" wins.

With respect to abortion, that means I am against it, as I view it as the taking of a human life.

I realize that this puts me in conflict with a pregnant woman who sees her situation as negatively impacting her life, but I do not believe that makes me a "bad" person. I do think her position is one of convenience in most cases, rather than conviction, but that is simply my opinion.

My personal beliefs will not see me with the crowd of zealots carrying on in front of the hospital like you described, Mark, but I will speak my mind when asked, as in this thread.

In the end, each of us must make our own decisions on right and wrong. I am content in where I draw that line. What others think of that, or of me as a result, matters little to me.

Milo

DrTyore;373289 wroteFair enough - as long as the women in question seek and receive permission from two other doctors (statistically speaking one of whom would be male - isn't that ironic).

Mark

Again . . . if the people of NB (who this affects) do not like this system, they are free to change it through political action. You are free to advocate for that change, others are free to oppose you, or advocate for stricter controls.

As for Morgentaler's clinic . . . feel free to cut them a cheque.

DrTyore

Milo

The ironic thing is if you'd admit that you only think resources and efforts should go towards people that think like or will bend to your way of thinking, it would actually make you an arrogant bastard.

And at least it would look better than how you've managed to come off here.

Mark
(An arrogant bastard)

Bfillmaff

I'll just leave this here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkgDhDa4HHo

DrTyore

Ahh, but Bfillmaff..

Don't forget that sodomy is also against the will of god.

Mark

Milo

DrTyore;373299 wroteMilo

The ironic thing is if you'd admit that you only think resources and efforts should go towards people that think like or will bend to your way of thinking, it would actually make you an arrogant bastard.

And at least it would look better than how you've managed to come off here.

Mark
(An arrogant bastard)

Wrong again . . . I accept that, in our system, things will be arranged in a manner that does not necessarily mesh with my beliefs. And I have never said that I would ban abortions outright (I wouldn't).

This is not even about what I would do if I were dictator for life in this country.

You started out decrying the closure of the Morgentaler clinic in NB. That is natural, as you are a supporter of unfettered access to abortion.
Then you said that the government should step into the situation to make sure that women could still have that access.

When it was pointed out that the closure of this clinic would not prevent women from accessing abortions in NB, only that it would become less convenient, or that government should not be subsidizing private businesses, you began throwing up other tangents to your point.

At it's simplest point, and with respect only to the closure of the Mortgentaler clinic, you do not have a leg to stand on.

Women in New Brunswick will still be able to kill their babies, if they want to. and we have agreed that Government should not be subsidizing private enterprise.

As for any admissions on my part, I admit that I wish more people felt as I do about abortion, but I am not about to insist that they feel that way. nor would I support a Government that insisted on that kind of conformity.

There actually are certain situations where I would not object to abortion.

SURPRISE . . .

Bfillmaff . . . check out the demographics in western countries. Most of them have declining birthrates. this was already mentioned earlier.

DrTyore

Milo;373345 wroteWrong again . . . I accept that, in our system, things will be arranged in a manner that does not necessarily mesh with my beliefs. And I have never said that I would ban abortions outright (I wouldn't).

Except for your "callous bastard" which clearly you imply "tough for you women".

This is not even about what I would do if I were dictator for life in this country.

You started out decrying the closure of the Morgentaler clinic in NB. That is natural, as you are a supporter of unfettered access to abortion.
Then you said that the government should step into the situation to make sure that women could still have that access.

Actually, I started out saying "Most can guess my stance on this", and then went to discuss the pros and cons of accessible abortions, and how many of the cons are disputed or discounted one you remove moralistic or outdated points of view. Following that I confronted a myth of abortion as birth control showing statistically that the vast majority of women do not use it as a viable birth control, and then further said that hardly matters IMO. The said that people would ideally you preventative measures, but that I'd bet abortion is still cheaper than an unwanted child.

Following this I questioned your accustations that the Margentaler clinic was only profiteering, and that philanthropy and profit aren't exclusive. I challenged your statement of 2-tier medical arrangements, and first pointed out this isn't about "classes" as much as it is about misogyny. Then I pointed out you didn't read the stats from earlier, or at the least discounted them for pithy response fun. I went on for a bit about government tax dollars being spent on support and care of children that were born to unfit living situations, and postulated that these cost way more than abortion. Then we discussed adoption a bit, and how I'm truly hopeful for those looking to do so, but still think it's unfair to expect someone that is pregnant to go through all of the physical / emotional pain (not to mention societal judgeyness) for their benefit. I also pointed out again that this is a government failing by effectively removing the CHOICE from women (note, not an "inconvenience" which you keep repeating in tremendously dickish fashion).

I then straight out say that you are making this about Morgentaler, and not the government's failing. We talk about population a bit, and how it's the immigrant population that is fostering national growth instead of native born - I essentially said I still think we have too many people so let the population grow from immigration is fine. Retirement came up, and admittedly, I'm not as vested in that as others, though that is somewhat off topic.

I then say that it's an embarrassment that the NB Government allowed "this" to happen, which I guess you could misconstrue as letting the MC fail. I meant to say that "this" is a glaring lack of service for women. Then I straight out say that a public facility (without the stupid hoops to jump through) is preferrable. Rehashed the cost argument is bullshit since it's cheaper for abortions. Pointed out that yes, having 2 medical professionals agreeing you need an abortion is an unreasonable thing to ask. You crawled back to economic moaning despite the fact that had already been negated. Then you went with the adoption thing again, which is still unfair to ask of people.

Then I posted (as I am here in much greater detail) that I never said the MC had to be saved, but a clinic should be available. Then I re-hashed how the money argument is again garbage. Then you came back with cancer treatments should be funded - which I agree to - and talked about your prostate screening thing not being covered - which I said it should be. Oh, and btw, looked that up, $30? Really? vs. $700? Then you said there is misandry which I'm guessing is the male equivalent of misogyny... which reminded me of this . Then you said I'm ramming my morals down your throat, which I responded that I'd never tell someone they should get an abortion, and that legal abortions aren't restricting you folks from not having one. I used an example of a fictitious, and over the top nutty lesbian to point out the wackiness, and also drew an analogy to vegetarianism and abortion debates. Pointed out that YOUR stance is passively enforcing your morals, not mine. Money came up again... still not a good argument.

Then you posted the most embarrassing thing I've seen you post (and you post a lot) and if you re-read it carefully (post #52), I hope you see just how incredibly brutal what you said is - and just how dismissive to an entire section of the population you are. Then you threw a hail mary pass questioning the legality of abortions (sorry, no immaculate reception this time). Then you whined again that there is a process for abortions, ignoring the ridiculousness of it, and discounting the discrimination of it. Then you straight up went with a moral viewpoint.

Then Bfillmaff posted a funny. I liked that one. And that brings us here... so hopefully this will stop your incessant "you wanted the MC to be funded so they can make money" stuff.

When it was pointed out that the closure of this clinic would not prevent women from accessing abortions in NB, only that it would become less convenient, or that government should not be subsidizing private businesses, you began throwing up other tangents to your point.

See above

At it's simplest point, and with respect only to the closure of the Mortgentaler clinic, you do not have a leg to stand on.

See above

Women in New Brunswick will still be able to kill their babies, if they want to. and we have agreed that Government should not be subsidizing private enterprise.

See above

As for any admissions on my part, I admit that I wish more people felt as I do about abortion, but I am not about to insist that they feel that way. nor would I support a Government that insisted on that kind of conformity.

There actually are certain situations where I would not object to abortion.

SURPRISE . . .

Bfillmaff . . . check out the demographics in western countries. Most of them have declining birthrates. this was already mentioned earlier.

So, in summary.. you're not really reading things through, you're not listening, and you're not making good points.

Mark

DrTyore

Mark

beanie42

Mark, did you post this thread simply because it's right after the Royal, and you knew I might poke my head around here?

I've read some but not all of the posts in this thread, and then stopped because it sounds like everybody is trying to pussy-foot around and be politically correct or sound smart. Bottom line, this IS a moral question, everything after that like politics and funding stems from that. IF you believe that life starts at conception (or prior), than abortion is categorically wrong, whether it's legal or the majority disagrees is irrelevant. If you believe that life is a big accident and there is nothing beyond this, who cares, do you what you want. Using the "but it's legal" argument could be used for many other moral travesties throughout history such as slavery. Was slavery fine because it was legal at one time, and plantation owners had the choice of whether to participate? Does that mean the intolerant North was taking away the then legal right to choose from the south, and that those Pro-choicers should have just been able to do what was best for them? Sounds silly if you consider a coloured person an actual human being, doesn't it?

And calling somebody a "zealot" or "crazy" for trying to force their belief in murder as being a personal choice, and petitioning for government funding of said murder, how often do you hear that? I don't hear you calling the Pro-choice picketers with signs that, but they are doing the exact same thing as the Pro-lifers, just from a different underlying belief system. Interesting how the "open-minded" and "tolerant" can justify the reservation of those derogatory labels for those they don't agree with. There are extremists on both sides, but there are also normal, intelligent people on both sides, who simply don't agree with that foundational decision. And Mark, do you realize how dismissive and offensive YOU are to an entire section of the population? Considering somebody an "arrogant bastard" for believing that there is a right and wrong, or for making a stand that disagrees with you is downright a bit ridiculous and... arrogant.

To sum up, in my mind there really is no debate about abortion, the debate is about core values and beliefs, and everything else stems out of that. Trying to avoid that issue but instead only focus on the decisions that flow out of it is a waste of time. Somebody can totally understand your position, but if they disagree with the fundamental premise, it's over before the conversation starts. My belief is that life starts before birth, fetus are no less people than 6 month old babies. I'm not going to try to sugar coat my perspective to avoid being labeled or ridiculed, that's simply how I see it. So once that's out in the open, discussing whether that killing should be government funded just because it's legal is irrelevant and a waste of time, since neither of us are going to change our mind. Most of us aren't truly open-minded, we just aren't honest enough to admit it, and thus participate in these farcical debates to try to give the appearance of open-mindedness...

Anyway, now that my posting quota is filled for this year, I'm off. Mark, I'm sure we'll continue this conversation in a few days when I see you. To everyone else, I'll be back in around 6 months when the next RC comes up.

Continue futile discussion now...

JohnnieH

beanie42;373374 wroteIF you believe that life starts at conception (or prior)

Life begins at erection?

Milo

LOL . . . nice one, Johnnie.

Bfillmaff

Milo;373345 wrote Bfillmaff . . . check out the demographics in western countries. Most of them have declining birthrates. this was already mentioned earlier.

It's the truth. Kinda scary when you think about how much the rest of the world is out-fucking us!

Milo

Not necessarily out-fucking us . . . they just don't kill as many of the "oopsies" as we do. Pretty sure that has to be it.

Milo

National Post editorial board: That’s not what the Charter says | National Post

Discuss . . .

Milo

**bump** /\/\/\/\/\

DrTyore

What would you want me to say?

Is it technically not legal? Sure. Does that change the fact that this is, and has been for years an accessible, and necessary option for women? No. Is it illegal? No.

Someone brought up that slavery used to be legal... cute point, except you need to remember the timeline. Great big wealthy majority members institute a policy / practice and inflict it upon others vs. society in general recognizing errors of their ways and taking steps to change things to be better for all.

So... slavery is legal because white affluent people enjoy their station and the moral and ethical things can be explained away --> slavery becomes illegal because "stop being dicks".

Abortion was illegal because white affluent people enjoy their station and the moral and ethical things can be explained away --> abortion becomes legal because "stop being dicks".

And I refuse to accept the "my religious / theological beliefs" as a valid explanation, because fairy tales.

Mark

Milo

And I am sure you will find some BS reason to ignore the fact that the Supreme Court of this country says that the State has a vested interest in protecting the Rights of the unborn, and that the Government should enact legislation that balances this interest with the Rights of the unborn.

That various governments have NOT done this speaks to the cowardice in politics today.

DrTyore

Milo;375493 wroteAnd I am sure you will find some BS reason to ignore the fact that the Supreme Court of this country says that the State has a vested interest in protecting the Rights of the unborn, and that the Government should enact legislation that balances this interest with the Rights of the unborn.

That various governments have NOT done this speaks to the cowardice in politics today.

What do you think politicians are more afraid of? Speaking up on issues that they have thought out with logical and reasonable premises, or upsetting the religious vote?

Rights of people actually here living on planet > rights of the unborn. Not too big a BS reason IMO. The government has no fucking right to dictate my spawning practices or lack thereof... keep away from my junk in all regards, be it reproductive, homo/hetero, or that kinky BDSM stuff that Jacknok's into.

Mark

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