Did I play ths wrong?

RAM_Eh

Single table sat live to a $500.00 buy-in.

first orbit, blinds are 25/50 start with 3000. I have played two hands for a 125 raise and had to fold both.

raised in mid position to 125 and I call with 4c, 7c on button. Small and big blind call. 500 in pot.

Flop is Kc 6c 7d. Original raiser continuation bets 125 again, I call and blinds fold.

turn is 4s, he bets 600 and I push my remainding 2400 in, never thinking I am behind here. I did loose the hand but my question is more

1. do I ever not go broke here
2. should I have called down only
3. realistically could I have put him on one of the two better hands KK or 66? 77 and 44 are very unlikely but possible.

Please give me your thoughts. I have never played with any of these players before.

pkrfce9

he bets 125 into 500 against 3 opponents then 600 into 750 hu?

hind sight is 20/20 but I probably raise the flop. I probably fold pre. it is 5% of your stack on a crap hand. I probably don't even sit at the table in the first place.

why play in such a crap shoot? you are too skilled for this.

The_Awesome

I'm folding preflop to the raise.

I'm possibly calling the flop $125 bet. I am also considering a raise given the decent flop for us and the tiny sized c-bet. I probably raise.

I'm okay pushing the turn. There's $750 + $600 in the pot, the only possibility to get a decent draw off is to push while you still have some fold equity and you won't have any on the river after a 3rd bet. Either that or beleive the jump in bet size means he has a real hand and fold.

1. Sometimes
2. Possibly. The jump in bet size on the turn is concerning. There's a good chance he's betting most of if not all your chips on the river.
3. Hands you beat: AK, KQ, KJ, AA, 89, 45; hands you don't KK, 66, 77, 44, 67, 53, 58; plus you have to consider there is a better club draw. 53 and 58 are unlikely but the rest are possible. 44 would be the most likely given the light flop c-bet with the flush draw on board. Then again I've found that so many players wimp out when they flop a set no matter how dangerous the flop for draws. So a light c-bet shouldn't rule out a flopped set. So it comes down to a calculation of probabilities based on odds, actions and gut. Not knowing anyone doesn't help.

But in the end I am probably pushing the turn with you here knowing there's still a half decent chance we're beat but more often then not we're good.

Wetts1012

I play it the same way on every street, perhaps raising flop every now and then.

For sure go broke every time.

RAM_Eh

pkrfce9;371477 wrotehe bets 125 into 500 against 3 opponents then 600 into 750 hu?

hind sight is 20/20 but I probably raise the flop. I probably fold pre. it is 5% of your stack on a crap hand. I probably don't even sit at the table in the first place.

why play in such a crap shoot? you are too skilled for this.

I'm not sure raising the flop is a good move as with two behind me I could easily get raised off the pot. I have a good draw but the turn was my death card.

It was a new poker group close to me I just was introduced to and I was free.

pkrfce9

I didn't think you could get raised off a pair and a flush draw. the 2 left to act have already checked. even against kk, highly unlikely, you have got what? 30% equity?

RAM_Eh

The_Awesome;371478 wroteI'm folding preflop to the raise.

I'm possibly calling the flop $125 bet. I am also considering a raise given the decent flop for us and the tiny sized c-bet. I probably raise.

I'm okay pushing the turn. There's $750 + $600 in the pot, the only possibility to get a decent draw off is to push while you still have some fold equity and you won't have any on the river after a 3rd bet. Either that or beleive the jump in bet size means he has a real hand and fold.

1. Sometimes
2. Possibly. The jump in bet size on the turn is concerning. There's a good chance he's betting most of if not all your chips on the river.
3. Hands you beat: AK, KQ, KJ, AA, 89, 45; hands you don't KK, 66, 77, 44, 67, 53, 58; plus you have to consider there is a better club draw. 53 and 58 are unlikely but the rest are possible. 44 would be the most likely given the light flop c-bet with the flush draw on board. Then again I've found that so many players wimp out when they flop a set no matter how dangerous the flop for draws. So a light c-bet shouldn't rule out a flopped set. So it comes down to a calculation of probabilities based on odds, actions and gut. Not knowing anyone doesn't help.

But in the end I am probably pushing the turn with you here knowing there's still a half decent chance we're beat but more often then not we're good.

I'm thinking what does he have on the flop. AK,AA,KK,KQ are the most obvious with the C bet, on the aggressive turn bet, the story now reads...AA,AK and KQ. I really cant put him on KK , 77 or 66 as it smells as a ok but not great hand. Ideally he played it very well as he had 66 or he was just trying to push off the flush draws and I got very unlucky.

RAM_Eh

pkrfce9;371502 wroteI didn't think you could get raised off a pair and a flush draw. the 2 left to act have already checked. even against kk, highly unlikely, you have got what? 30% equity?

I would have had to commit with a relatively weak hand and a draw. An ace high flush draw would have raised me and I'm in a whole world of hurt.

The_Awesome

RAM_Eh;371501 wroteI'm not sure raising the flop is a good move as with two behind me I could easily get raised off the pot. I have a good draw but the turn was my death card.

It was a new poker group close to me I just was introduced to and I was free.

Flop came down and it went check, check, tiny c-bet. In many if not most cases no one here caught anything and mid pos felt obligated to c-bet. Even with a total miss I might take a stab at the pot here from the button. So I raise to $400. If he then reraises I can maybe get away from this hand (likely not), if instead he calls and we see the turn I'm going home anyway since I'll bet my 2 pair and won't be able to get away likely.

Flopped sets can be hard to detect. People often bet at them weakly or even check them on the flop because they are so afraid of being detected. Be very careful when ruling them out. Often by the turn they recover from the shock and return to standard situational betting.

All in all I think you played the turn fine. I too would have thought most times you are ahead there on the turn. There are far more combinations of hands you beat possible than those you don't (about 3:1 by my list if I did it right). Plus you still have up to 13 outs to most hands you are behind. Pre and post flop are also reasonable options from the button.

RAM_Eh

The_Awesome;371505 wroteFlop came down and it went check, check, tiny c-bet. In most cases no one here caught anything and mid pos felt obligated to c-bet. Even with a total miss I might take a stab at the pot here from the button.

Good point.

ReefAquarium

RAM_Eh;371475 wroteSingle table sat live to a $500.00 buy-in.

first orbit, blinds are 25/50 start with 3000. I have played two hands for a 125 raise and had to fold both.

raised in mid position to 125 and I call with 4c, 7c on button. Small and big blind call. 500 in pot.

Why did you call? Why are you playing a 2 gap suited connector with position? The stacks are not deep enough to call to hit a hand.

Calling to hit your hand is never ever right in this situation.

If you have a huge postflop skill advantage you might argue that it makes it right. But you know nothing about these people.

It's a disaster.

Why not fold 90% of the time or make it 550 more and hope to outplay them?

Flop is Kc 6c 7d. Original raiser continuation bets 125 again, I call and blinds fold.

Why did you call, Why not make it 720 more?

turn is 4s, he bets 600 and I push my remainding 2400 in, never thinking I am behind here. I did loose the hand but my question is more

1. do I ever not go broke here
2. should I have called down only
3. realistically could I have put him on one of the two better hands KK or 66? 77 and 44 are very unlikely but possible.

Please give me your thoughts. I have never played with any of these players before.

So he makes a big bet and now you shove?
What worse hands call you?
What better hands fold?
Is there a juicy cash game you can play at this point?

The_Awesome

I'll take a shot at the turn hands and odds. I'm fairly new to this though.

What worse hands might call:
AK (12) AA (6) KQ (12) KJ (12) AQc (1)

What better hands fold:
None

What better hands call:
KK (3) 44(1) 66 (3) 77 (1) 89c(1)

So 43 of 53 possible hands in this range he is the fav on the turn.

We could also apply a weight on the hands due to probability of villain calling:

What worse hands might call:
AK (12) AA (6) KQ (12-4) KJ (12-8) AQc (1-1)

What better hands call:
KK (3) 44(1) 66 (3) 77 (1) 89c(1)

So now we are at 30 of 40 which is still just fine.

Now we can apply the odds directly to this if you need more proof:

What worse hands might call:
AK (12 @ 82%) AA (6 @ 82%) KQ (8 @ 82%) KJ (4 @ 82%)

What better hands call:
KK (3 @ 20%) 44(1 @ 25%) 66 (3 @ 25%) 77 (1 @ 20%) 89c(1 @ 30%)

=68-70% average

Without knowing the player or noticing a tell a shove makes sense to me.

pkrfce9

WTF does this mean? Will this be on the exam?

The_Awesome

pkrfce9;371556 wroteWTF does this mean? Will this be on the exam?

Not sure I know for sure :).

I defined what I expect the range to be.

Broke it out into how many variations there are for each hand I listed.

Then I reduced those in cases where villain won't always play those cards (like KJ) by a guestimate.

That gives a reasonable comparison of how many hands you are ahead vs. total range.

Then finally I ran the odds of each hand against mine on the turn, counted each variation equally and got an average win % (I cut some corners and just used an online calculator).

To be honest I don't think I've ever tried to take it so far, just wondering if it makes sense. Guess not lol.

Adjusted: 30 of the total hands you're ahead ~82% and 10 you are behind ~23%.

Unadjusted is 43 to 10 with close to the same average odds.

Bfillmaff

made sense to me, nice breakdown. pkrface is just starting out, you may have to talk slower

pkrfce9

Speak slowly I don't understand stupid

My fave T-shirt

tapatalk puts this here to annoy YOU

pkrfce9

Next to the whole shaved balls thing of course

tapatalk puts this here to annoy YOU

Wetts1012

That was a lot of words that I didn't really read, but if the jist was that shoving turn=profit then I'm cool with it.

Startles

Wetts1012;371479 wroteI play it the same way on every street, perhaps raising flop every now and then.

For sure go broke every time.

Really curious if Wetts really plays 47s here pre, or if he just missed it. I can't imagine it being profitable, but maybe I gotta reconsider my gap theory.

[deleted]

I 3b 47s here on the puck