Going full time!

Tonychanman

pokerJAH;359908 wroteHow much are you charging on average per table? what is the average profit margin per table? How many tables do you have to sell per month to make a decent living? how long does it take you to make one table? didn't realize that there was that much demand for poker tables.

Average charge, $1,500/table. Average profit margin I'd rather not disclose, but not hard to imagine the ballpark range. I've determined I need to build at least 4 tables / month to keep up my standard of living. Takes me between 6-30 hours to build a table depending on the design. I also did not think there would be enough demand for custom tables, but I have been proven wrong from my experience since starting.

You don't need to incorporate to run the business. If you anticipate losses in the first year, it might be easier just to run it as a sole proprietorship and that way you can offset the losses against other sources of income (salary from other jobs for the first part of 2013, etc.). Even if you are profitable from the start, running the business may be easier if you want to have a home office and deduct a portion of your mortgage interest, utilities, etc., which I don't think is possible if you are incorporated. There is no real need to incorporate for this type of business. Find someone you know that has a good tax background and they can give you some advice on the best form of business for your needs. Incorporating will cost you $1k plus for legal fees and there are many annual filing requirements that just add more unnecessary costs to running the business.

I understand that incorporating isn't necessary, but I think there are some advantages that I can utilize. I though incorporation fee was $200-250 plus the cost to namesearch... From people I've talked to so far, in my position they've recommended to incorporate, mainly for my protection as an individual. If anything where to go south, then the corp goes down and not me.

Also, I'm not running my shop out of my house, it's at a family member's house who is letting me use their space. So I don't get any tax breaks for using part of my house as the shop or office anyways.

Thanks a ton for the link about not having to charge tax for under $30k in sales. Will come in handy for the first little while I'm sure.

GTA Poker

I've always worked as self employed in Canada but not as a corporation.

JimmyHo

I would also look at deducting home office expenses, even if you are building the tables at a different location. If you are making a profit, it is very easy to justify these types of expenses. CRA is not worried about taxpayers that are reporting a profit.

I would really think about the incorporating option and speak to someone knowledgeable. Its not really the cost of incorporating, its having the option of deducting some personal expenses to reduce your overall tax bill. Which may not be an option if you are incorporating. You don't really have any liability issues when you are building poker tables that would justify the need for a corporation. Not unless you want to split income with other family members and make them shareholders in the corporation?

Hopefully the demand is there for this price point for a poker table.

GTA Poker

You can write the same things off as said employed without incorporating. The benefit of incorporating would be paying yourself a low income through the corporation and saving your money to be paid out at a later time when you are in a lower tax bracket (I think). Anyhow, I believe that there isn't much benefit unless you are making at least 100k or so.believe

Get a gst# and work as self employed. Keep all of your receipts for everything (food, gas, car repair, etc.) and then find a decent accountant.

Tonychanman

Thanks guys. I will defo be talking to a professional about which one is best suited for my situation. So far I'm just relying on what people have told me, but I will make sure I get paid advice.

You're right about the home office part though, I'll still be on my computer at home so that means it's partially my office. I'll be sure to write that off.

I'm not doing anything like hiring family. I've learned not to mix family with business. I haven't been keeping my receipts properly so far, but I started to recently.

RAM_Eh

I would look to incorporate. GTA is correct about the lower tax rate.

not sure of the exact numbers but Corps pay roughly 21% tax and you can keep your income low for the first few years there is a define tax break. When you do take the money our take it as a dividend and this will also be and additional 20%. BTW this adds up to the larger 40-42% tax bracket.

I have been self employed for 19 years this September. I have an accountant do both personal and corporate...and there are 3 different levels of accounting for the feds. You would be the lowest / cheapest form as you really don't need to report to anyone else...(investors/bonding companies). BTW if you get an accountant to do the closing of the YE and note that on the paperwork submitted, audit will not be a problem unless you deal in cash, then expect the audit regularly.

pkrfce9

If you will profit over 100k AND you can income split with wife or kids it may be worth it to incorporate. Note that is profit not sales.

There are accountants on here who can give you some quick advice. Where are you Corky or Tom?

No, Tapatalk says this can't be changed.

Tonychanman

Not going to make over 100k even in sales this year.

Corky or Tom??

pkrfce9

Tonychanman;359982 wroteCorky or Tom??

2 accountants that I know of on the forum

No, Tapatalk says this can't be changed.

BlondeFish

I hope you've done your homework, including market research and a written solid business plan that has been approved by an experienced small business advisor. To be perfectly honest, so far it seems to be a great PART-TIME business as opposed to putting all your eggs on the table - just like poker can be a good income supplement for some players without having to throw everything else away. You may need other sources of income during the inevitable lean months. You have to be prepared for the worst if Plan A is not working out as you expect, and Plan B should not be poker!

And confirm with your business advisor that incorporating is not worth it with < $100K in sales.

Tonychanman;359917 wroteAverage charge, $1,500/table. Average profit margin I'd rather not disclose, but not hard to imagine the ballpark range. I've determined I need to build at least 4 tables / month to keep up my standard of living. Takes me between 6-30 hours to build a table depending on the design.

wildbill7145

Very solid advice from BF. Since moving here I've almost had to consider a part time job during lean winter months. Being in business for yourself means no UI (I understand it is available now but I'm not ever dealing with that system ever again).

Tonychanman

Thanks for the concern. The original plan was to do this part time but my circumstances have led me to this point. I will be working elsewhere part time to make sure I have done guaranteed income every month and not hoping and praying for orders when they're hard to come by.

I do have a solid plan B if things go awry.

To be honest I know that I'm not as prepared as I should be at this point but I'm working hard to get where I need to be.

Tonychanman

Tom had reached out to me via pm already.

I am actually really wanting a business partner to do this with but I don't know if anyone who would be interested in such a venture and once you have a partner it means splitting profit in a market that is already thin. I don't think the market could support the need for 10+ tables per month, although I am going to expand into different gaming tables.

Tonychanman

Looking for any ideas for promotions/advertising. So far, what I've got is to advertise at poker games locally, be it at charity tournaments, bar leagues or casinos. I think this is the best place to advertise since it hits my target audience. I'm going to do this locally first, then across Canada and eventually all of North America.

I'm going to restart my google ad sense ad. I had some OK results when it ran for a while with people I knew telling me they saw my ad. The click through rate was so so, but I won't be making this a big part of my sales as it's overhead heavy if I want to do it right. I may possibly make a facebook ad as well. They tend to post the ads to a specific audience related to the ad.

I've though of making some sort of promotional product for people as a keepsake rather than just a business card. Something like a card guard or dealer button with my information on it. A card guard in the shape of a poker table with mini fold out legs comes to mind. Again, these are overhead heavy so this won't be priority. Business cards should do the job for now. Any promotional tables though will have my website address printed onto the cloth. Maybe my logo as well, but at the moment I'm thinking of getting my logo redone professionally. $200 to get it done by a pro is worth the money.

JimmyHo

Tonychanman;360332 wroteLooking for any ideas for promotions/advertising.

Seem to be lots of tables on Kijiji. Renting out tables might be a good way to generate some revenue as well. Although they will likely get pretty banged up.

Tonychanman

That's just the cost of doing rentals. The income generated will outweigh the cost to reupholster the tables once in a while. Even if my tables get banged up, only the upholstery would take any damage, my tables don't break without using excessive force.

Kijiji tables will always be around, that's a different market than what I'm targetting. If someone wants a custom table, then I'm their guy. If they want a generic table and contact me, I refer them to a local seller nearby who sells chinese imports.

Tonychanman

I have my fingers crossed for the new year. I'm in the process of getting a new location, likely a warehouse >1000 sq ft as well as a CNC machine.

djgolfcan

Hey Tony, have you thought about getting a celebrity poker player endorsement ? You make them a high end table and you can use them in your ads.

Tonychanman

I know that Daniel Negreanu endorses Regal Poker Tables in the USA. I have thought of it but I don't think I'm at that point yet. I haven't even had one of my tables in a casino yet, but I'm hoping to change that with the new Hard Rock Casino rebranding launch.

A friend of mine got me in contact with one of the guys in charge of the poker room there and I'm waiting to hear back.

Tonychanman

Shop has been acquired. 1700 of glorious poker table building space. Time to pump out some tables!

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