Abortion ... the next step.

DrTyore

Milo;357936 wroteMark, why is it "hatespeak" to posit a religious point of view, yet you give GTA a pass when he posts about child molesting clergy?

What's your solution? Sex is only allowed in marriage or when raping young boys?

Given the data available, is this not also hatespeak?

Just curious, but also helping to kick start this muthah . . .

Couple things on that..

You pointed out that molesting children is no more prevalent in the clergy than other child-based occupations. Funny thing about that is, it really rankles me more when this is a group of LITERALLY holier than thou folk doing it. You wanna say you're at a higher standard, you get harder judgement when you fall. On that note, don't pull this bullshit of "Well, the true clergy would claim to be no more, or even less so" shit.

Hatespeak that I'm talking about is directed towards a race, sex, culture (you know, prejudice and bigotry). "Occupation" does not qualify.

Mark

Milo

aaahh, but are Catholic priests not an identifiable group?

Hate speech is, outside the law, communication that vilifies a person or a group based on discrimination against that person or group

And I don't know that it is more egregious when it a clergyman involved, beyond the whole "higher standard" you bring up. violating the trust of a child is disgusting no matter who does it. But I will not argue the point.

What rankles me is people who use the abuse scandal as simply another means of demonizing the Church as a whole, to the exclusion of caring for those who were hurt by it. The Church has, in recent years, acknowledged it's faults in this regard and has taken steps to ensure that it does not happen in the future. It is also caring for those affected by this tragedy.

Where are the people screaming for reform of our teaching methods and school boards because of teachers who molest? Or our Hockey Leagues? If anything comes of a new revelation it's on the back page the next day. But the Church? Stretch into days and weeks if possible. Rank hypocrisy . . . in general, not on your part.

TheMill

After reading this, and looking at my 18 month daughter. I can not fathom how any human being on this planet would conclude that that a fetus and a living and breathing entity are one in the same.

I will not address the whole point of life issue but I'm with Jah, PM me if you see people "throwing" out babies.

Philadelphia abortion doctor guilty in 3 babies' deaths - World - CBC News

Read this, if you have any empathy for human life you probably won't finish it.

DrTyore

Milo;357940 wroteaaahh, but are Catholic priests not an identifiable group?

Choice vs not choice - also, don't try the "choose gay" or "called by god" stuff either

Hate speech is, outside the law, communication that vilifies a person or a group based on discrimination against that person or group

And I don't know that it is more egregious when it a clergyman involved, beyond the whole "higher standard" you bring up. violating the trust of a child is disgusting no matter who does it. But I will not argue the point.

Good decision

What rankles me is people who use the abuse scandal as simply another means of demonizing the Church as a whole, to the exclusion of caring for those who were hurt by it. The Church has, in recent years, acknowledged it's faults in this regard and has taken steps to ensure that it does not happen in the future. It is also caring for those affected by this tragedy.

I think I've pretty much laid out my opinion of the church and all its failings without needing to lean on the pedophilia.

Where are the people screaming for reform of our teaching methods and school boards because of teachers who molest? Or our Hockey Leagues? If anything comes of a new revelation it's on the back page the next day. But the Church? Stretch into days and weeks if possible. Rank hypocrisy . . . in general, not on your part.

Again, I think it is the perception that these people in the church are supposed to be held to a higher standard, by their own vocational choice (there's that word again).

Mark

Milo

Disgusting . . . hope gets a long time to contemplate his crimes. As for your daughter, she is no different now (genetically speaking, than she was in the womb. the only real difference is one of geography.

Milo

DrTyore;357942 wroteAgain, I think it is the perception that these people in the church are supposed to be held to a higher standard, by their own vocational choice (there's that word again).

Mark

I see . . . so, hatespeak for thee, but not for we. As long as we are clear.

As for your comment about pedophilia, a case can be made that that is not a "choice" either.

Milo

By the way, shouldn't we wait for Brent?

DrTyore

Milo;357944 wroteDisgusting . . . hope gets a long time to contemplate his crimes. As for your daughter, she is no different now (genetically speaking, than she was in the womb. the only real difference is one of geography.

Georgraphy, size, complexity, viability, sentience, recognition, you know... but just geography.

Mark

DrTyore

Milo;357945 wroteI see . . . so, hatespeak for thee, but not for we. As long as we are clear.

As for your comment about pedophilia, a case can be made that that is not a "choice" either.

Sigh, how do you make a good point and pull a phillivey in one post?

Yes, there could be a case made that pedophilia has a certain degree of compulsion to it.

But you had this quaint little quote about the hatespeak all lined up and completely missed my point.

Mark

Milo

DrTyore;357948 wroteGeorgraphy, size, complexity, viability, sentience, recognition, you know... but just geography.

Mark

Viability? Please tell me that you do not think an 18 month old can survive on it's own . . .

Complexity? Was his DNA somehow altered by the birthing process? I don't think so, so he is just as complex after birth as before.

Recognition? Babies in utero respond to their Mother's voice, but also to their Father's. They do so differently than they do with others.

Sentience? Watch Silent Scream. Further, is a newborn as "sentient" as a 6 yr. old?

Size? Now you're just fucking with me, aren't you?

And I am pretty sure I understand where you're coming from, Mark. In many ways we see eye to eye on various issues, but on certain key questions we will always differ. Like this Goznell character that the Mill linked to. We can both agree that, as monstrous as his crimes were, he should not be put to death.

Milo

Simply put, it is my belief that abortion is wrong, and that some form of limits need to be placed on access if we, as a nation, want to talk about Human Rights and be taken seriously. Brent seems to think that this latest diatribe on abortion is where we are heading, but I disagree. I see a day where there will be some form of legislation surrounding abortion in this country. I also think that, like all good compromises, it will please no one.

DrTyore

Milo;357951 wroteSimply put, it is my belief that abortion is wrong, and that some form of limits need to be placed on access if we, as a nation, want to talk about Human Rights and be taken seriously. Brent seems to think that this latest diatribe on abortion is where we are heading, but I disagree. I see a day where there will be some form of legislation surrounding abortion in this country. I also think that, like all good compromises, it will please no one.

There is some form of legislation around abortion in this country. Further, Brent is about one bad day away from this guy....

Further, when I said;

"Recognition" earlier, I wasn't talking about it the way you took it, I meant it as "we don't see them as human".

DNA does not = complexity. My hair will have the same DNA as my entire body. My hair is less complex than me.

Viability - if you feed and water a child, it will survive. A fetus of 8 weeks ain't gonna last on gerber food and milk.

Mark

Milo

But if the Mother continues to eat and thereby feed the child, it will be just fine.

An unborn child, and a newborn one, are BOTH dependent on someone else for nourishment. The only difference is in the means of delivery, and the type of food. A newborn won't do too well on Steak and Baked Potato either.

You are factually incorrect about abortion law. The Supreme court struck down our previous legislation in it's entirety and sent the whole issue back to Parliament for action. Successive Liberal and Conservative Prime Ministers have not seen fit to address the issue, knowing that the divisiveness of the procees would cost them votes, and possibly an election victory. There is no Federal statute governing abortion in Canada.

DrTyore

Milo;357954 wroteBut if the Mother continues to eat and thereby feed the child, it will be just fine.

An unborn child, and a newborn one, are BOTH dependent on someone else for nourishment. The only difference is in the means of delivery, and the type of food. A newborn won't do too well on Steak and Baked Potato either.

You are factually incorrect about abortion law. The Supreme court struck down our previous legislation in it's entirety and sent the whole issue back to Parliament for action. Successive Liberal and Conservative Prime Ministers have not seen fit to address the issue, knowing that the divisiveness of the procees would cost them votes, and possibly an election victory. There is no Federal statute governing abortion in Canada.

Replace "legislation" with a "policy" and I'm close enough... and it basically reads:

"Hey, you old fucks with dicks, it isn't your decision, get fucked kindly, and stop trying to control other people because of your made up man in the sky. Asswipes."

Mark

Milo

Funny how you fall back on "close enough" when it suits you . . . but no, you are not. What you are is wrong. There is no law in this country with regard to abortion.

As for old fucks and their dicks, it doesn't have anything to do with that, either . . . and the fact that you are falling back on familiar territory is heartening.

Lastly, don't worry, the made up man in the sky forgives you . . . it's kind of His thing.

Enjoy your weekend. I am going to start loading up on some Havana Club 7 yr. old Rum. See ya . . .

TheMill

Milo;357944 wroteDisgusting . . . hope gets a long time to contemplate his crimes. As for your daughter, she is no different now (genetically speaking, than she was in the womb. the only real difference is one of geography.

I do agree milo, but I'm a kid person and she is my daughter so I'm a little biased on that one. As for the genetic question, it brings a to mind an article I read recently. Little off topic but still some what relevant

Henrietta Lacks formally recognised as source of HeLa research cells | Science | theguardian.com

So who owns your genes? You or your ancestors/descendants?

DrTyore

Milo;357956 wroteFunny how you fall back on "close enough" when it suits you . . . but no, you are not. What you are is wrong. There is no law in this country with regard to abortion.

As for old fucks and their dicks, it doesn't have anything to do with that, either . . . and the fact that you are falling back on familiar territory is heartening.

Lastly, don't worry, the made up man in the sky forgives you . . . it's kind of His thing.

Enjoy your weekend. I am going to start loading up on some Havana Club 7 yr. old Rum. See ya . . .

Make believe forgiveness? Not needed, but it did remind me of a great little song quote...

"They tell me I'm forgiven if I ask to be,
I think permission oughta come that easily,
I'm piling cores up underneath this apple tree and singing
Oh! Lordy have mercy on me".

Let's face it, society defines the morals. Fetus isn't a person, abortion isn't murder. Sure, people have individual morals and values, but I prefer the ones I made up myself vs the ones that were brainwashed into me.

There's a mental exercise were you are to picture yourself born in a different time, in a different place. If this was ancient greek, you'd be tossing deformed babies away because their particular group of pointy hat experts deemed it "Right".

There is 0% way you can say that the old fucks and their dicks (and let's extrapolate, anyone, man woman, old or young who is not currently considering an abortion) don't play into this. All these fucking people that say abortion is wrong, and that it shouldn't be allowed are pretentious assholes who need to shut their fucking mouth. Bottom line, it's up to the persons in the situation. Take god out of it (and I'll take out Mr. clean and Mickey Mouse since they're all on par), and it has NOTHING to do with anyone not currently expecting.

Now, if you want an interesting debate, let's talk about the morals of the choice of abortion when there is dissent between the two genetic contributors (the parents to be)! How does one divvy up the decision making, if at all? Maybe a new thread.

Mark

Milo

Yeah I read that article too. I think that you own your genes. I think in this case, as there was no prior agreement for the deceased to donate or the doctor to "harvest" the cells, the descendants might have some marginal claim. As for the present day. I used to do product testing, and have done so for a medical study on one occasion. When I participated, I was required to sign off that any discoveries made through the use of any genetic material they may take (blood samples) were the property of the Company in question, and that my compensation would constitute "full and final payment" for same. Pretty sure that is standard language now in medical research now.

Milo

DrTyore;357958 wroteMake believe forgiveness? Not needed, but it did remind me of a great little song quote...

"They tell me I'm forgiven if I ask to be,
I think permission oughta come that easily,
I'm piling cores up underneath this apple tree and singing
Oh! Lordy have mercy on me".

Let's face it, society defines the morals. Fetus isn't a person, abortion isn't murder. Sure, people have individual morals and values, but I prefer the ones I made up myself vs the ones that were brainwashed into me.

There's a mental exercise were you are to picture yourself born in a different time, in a different place. If this was ancient greek, you'd be tossing deformed babies away because their particular group of pointy hat experts deemed it "Right".

There is 0% way you can say that the old fucks and their dicks (and let's extrapolate, anyone, man woman, old or young who is not currently considering an abortion) don't play into this. All these fucking people that say abortion is wrong, and that it shouldn't be allowed are pretentious assholes who need to shut their fucking mouth. Bottom line, it's up to the persons in the situation. Take god out of it (and I'll take out Mr. clean and Mickey Mouse since they're all on par), and it has NOTHING to do with anyone not currently expecting.

Now, if you want an interesting debate, let's talk about the morals of the choice of abortion when there is dissent between the two genetic contributors (the parents to be)! How does one divvy up the decision making, if at all? Maybe a new thread.

Mark

But you see, that is wher my position wins. I assign the same Rights to the unborn child as I do to the Mother and Father. In that instance, it no longer matters what the Father wants, nor the Mother, as the right of the child to life becomes paramount. See? totally avoids your specious little argument.

Let's face it, society defines the morals. Fetus isn't a person, abortion isn't murder. Sure, people have individual morals and values, but I prefer the ones I made up myself

This troubles me . . . what happens when you change your mind? Sorry, but I prefer my morals to be a little less "flexible". Right and wrong are real concepts, not some ephemeral idea that changes like the length of a woman's skirt.

With regard to children I kind of like this:

The child must be given the means requisite for its normal development, both materially and spiritually;
The child that is hungry must be fed; the child that is sick must be nursed; the child that is backward must be helped; the delinquent child must be reclaimed; and the orphan and the waif must be sheltered and succored;
The child must be the first to receive relief in times of distress;
The child must be put in a position to earn a livelihood, and must be protected against every form of exploitation;
The child must be brought up in the consciousness that its talents must be devoted to the service of fellow men.

You will note that the UN mentions "spirituality" in the first point.

TheMill

Your right in the fact Milo that there was no consent on Henrietta's part. I did consent to giving my genes when my wife and I decided to have children but the 2 have similarities in an that who owns the genetic property. Of children or adults(deceased) thus constituting "ownership" Do I own my wife's fetus? I think moms everywhere would way in on that one. To me this is about ADULTS making personal choices about their lives. Yeah I might not agree and I might even think less of you for taking a certain path but at the end of the day I will defend your right to make that choice (whatever it may be)

Lets look at the other end of the life spectrum. Should assisted suicide be legal? If I wanna die on my own terms regardless of the reasons. Who are YOU to say no?

Life is about choices and everyone makes their own. That I think is a right every human being/soul has.

« Previous Page Next Page »