Playing with cannons

pkrfce9

Something I do every time I go to Quebec City and it seems every time I go to Woodbine these days. And Pockets.

You know the guys. They raise frequently and keep firing. The bets seem much larger than optimal but maybe that's just me. They amass huge stacks, donk them off then build them right back up again. Some of them are pretty good but still get caught once in a while.

I'm curious what strategies people use against these players.
* where do you like to sit relative to them
* do you buy in for a full stack and reload as needed or go short stack
* pf how strong does your hand have to be to call their raises. Do you reraise with a premium hand. How does your play change based on position. Do you 3 bet bluff them
* post flop is more complex. How do you adjust your play based on position. How does the strength of your hand change your play. When do you show aggression vs passivity.

I hope we can get a good discussion going.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk 4 Beta

djgolfcan

When I am playing with the proper bankroll, I love the cannons. I like to sit to the left of them so I can after they do, position is key. I tighten way up against them, but try to loosen up against the other players, then I don't look like a Rock when playing against the cannon.
I mix up how I play against them, sometimes slow playing, sometimes raising their c-bet, some times just flatting.

My latest play is to float any flop and bet 50-60% pot if they check the turn to me. But only if I have seen that they can lay their hand down.

If I make top pair against them, I'm in it 'til the river.

compuease

wtf is this? Poker discussion? sacrilegious I say!

Playing with true cannons I like to be on their right or close to it. I need to know what the rest of the table is doing before I make my decision... Mainly to prevent me being trapped between the cannon and a "knowing" player..
Funny but I haven't really experienced any of that at "Woodstock" as yet, albeit with limited playing time.

GTA Poker

Would need some hands to refine your definition. It seems that most people mischaracterize their opponents when speaking in generalities.

djgolfcan

GTA Poker;357416 wroteWould need some hands to refine your definition. It seems that most people mischaracterize their opponents when speaking in generalities.

I call them LAGS - Loose / Agressive. Raise all the time and fire on most streets. You never know if they have it or not.

GTA Poker

djgolfcan;357425 wroteI call them LAGS - Loose / Agressive. Raise all the time and fire on most streets. You never know if they have it or not.

so, you are talking about me

I could tell you how to beat me, but I would have to kill you

Seriously, a good LAG is very tough to beat, a "cannon" is not

djgolfcan

djgolfcan;357425 wroteI call them LAGS - Loose / Agressive. Raise all the time and fire on most streets. You never know if they have it or not.

GTA Poker;357448 wroteso, you are talking about me

I could tell you how to beat me, but I would have to kill you

Seriously, a good LAG is very tough to beat, a "cannon" is not

No, I gave the wrong definition. the cannon doesn't know when to fold or slow down.

GTA Poker

OP -- some hands?

DrTyore

My buddy Jeff is a cannon

He's not as good as he thinks but I have seen him run $80 into $1200 in under an hour #pokerjahwinrates

Here is the perfect example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. Jeff knows that top pair is a good hand. He knows that two pair is better, and flushes are REALLY strong. But he doesn't understand pot odds and probability (not saying he couldn't learn, he just enjoys the gambool).

Jeff will bet like $25 into a $12 pot with top pair and a coaster. I find the best strategy (and I only play like 1-2) is the standard tight is right but do NOT bluff more than 1/6 hands, and only when you are one on one. You don't win your money off of bluffs against these guys, you win by check call check call check raise kinda play.

Mark

Milo

So disappointed this was not about Sons of Guns . . . lol

Wetts1012

DrTyore;357460 wrote
He's not as good as he thinks but I have seen him run $80 into $1200 in under an hour #pokerjahwinrates

Still a little off my standard definition, I mean I dont know any cannons that would buyin for any less than the max (unless 80 was the max).

Anyway the standard is the same. Play back at them a few times and they'll generally leave you alone.

I agree with GTA that some hand examples might stir the discussion a bit more.

piggypie123

milo;357489 wroteso disappointed this was not about sons of guns . . . Lol

it's a cannon!

DrTyore

Wetts1012;357498 wroteStill a little off my standard definition, I mean I dont know any cannons that would buyin for any less than the max (unless 80 was the max).

Anyway the standard is the same. Play back at them a few times and they'll generally leave you alone.

I agree with GTA that some hand examples might stir the discussion a bit more.

Some clarification... he buys in for more, loses, and doesn't reload before BOOM magic.

Mark

BlondeFish

compuease;357412 wroteFunny but I haven't really experienced any of that at "Woodstock" as yet...

Ditto. First we have to agree with the definition of "cannon" for purposes of this sacrilegious strategy thread.

Cannon: losing :fish: who is very loose and aggressive. As pkrfce9 mentioned, they have a high PFR % and keep firing, sometimes overbets. A winning LAG is very different in that they make +EV aggression plays and know when to correctly fold or change gears.

I loved playing with the live cannons years ago, but haven't had the pleasure of seeing too many cannons left since I started playing live again at Woodstock, Fallsview, Mohawk, Georgian Downs, Western Fair, Brantford & Rama.

pkrfce9;357409 wrote* where do you like to sit relative to them

David Sklansky & Ed Miller wrote about relative & absolute position in their NLHE: Theory & Practice book, but you still have my copy, so you will have to read that section yourself!
Whenever players complain about a cannon in their previous "crazy" table that they asked to be moved from, I immediately move to that table & try to seat-change ASAP to cannon's immediate LEFT so that I get to decide what to do after his action not only pre-flop, but on all 3 streets post-flop.

* do you buy in for a full stack and reload as needed or go short stack

As soon as I see a cannon in the table, I buy in for the max and would keep topping up to the max.

* pf how strong does your hand have to be to call their raises. Do you reraise with a premium hand. How does your play change based on position. Do you 3 bet bluff them

Position is very important, so my calling range would depend on how many players are left to act after me. For example, I would fold most hands on the puck vs. an UTG raise, but against a cannon, I may call with hands as weak as 54s, 65s, A2s, & 22 (if getting implied odds to set-mine).

I would not 3-bet light vs. a cannon as they are looking for any excuse to call - "but I was soooted!" :rolleyes: For the same reason, I would 3-bet premium hands.

* post flop is more complex. How do you adjust your play based on position. How does the strength of your hand change your play. When do you show aggression vs passivity.

Cannons love to fire, so check-calling with your made hand is a good option. I would have a higher check-raise frequency on the river, compared to other player types who don't bet on the river. Cannons have a lower folding frequency, so my bluff frequency would be less.

JimmyHo

I have played against many cannons, even some that show you their cards just to get you to call or push completely blind pre-flop. Raising a cannon can be a problem if you are not ready to get all your chips in the middle as they will often push with any two cards or don't like someone else taking the lead. Personally I prefer a LAG approach to a TAG approach. Makes the game a lot more exciting.

GTA Poker

WAT?

I've never heard you describe a hand where you played LAG in all your years on the forum!

pkrfce9

Thank you all for your thoughts on this. I hope we can keep the discussion going.

Perhaps the word 'cannon' is not entirely correct. Most of these guys I'm talking about do not appear to be complete idiots. Maybe 'lagtards' would be a better term? Or just 'lags' if we want to be nice? For the most part, these are younger players. I'm guessing with lots of internet experience. Could they be members here? :)

They never seem to have less than the max buy-in in front of them, often have several times the max buy-in when I sit down. They will reload whenever they dip below max buy-in.

They play probably 50% or more of the hands, raising almost every one they are in. I haven't seen them play a lot of absolute garbage but I have seen hands like T8o, 54s, any Ace, any pair playing big pots. Frequently the raises are in later position but I did see one raise with 54s from SB. The problem with Woodbine is they don't usually show both hands at showdown, only the winner. So when someone calls them down with bottom pair and wins, you don't know exactly what the lagtard was playing but at least you know he couldn't beat bottom pair.

Raises are large for the stakes and stack sizes - often 15-20 at a 1/2 table where the average stack is generally < 200. They take down a lot of pots PF. At most they will get 1 or 2 callers and they always fire on the flop (pot-size and sometimes higher), almost always on the turn (close to pot-size) and again on the river (varies but not cheap). If you get to the river with them, the pot is always > 200 and often > 500. Generally, they are putting a lot of pressure on their opponents on every street. I saw one frustrated tag make a crying call for 150+ on the river with a busted flush draw when he paired his 4 and take down a 500+ pot. I also saw a terrible player call 100+ on the river and lose to the lag's Ace high.

Comp, I have heard your idea of sitting on their right so as to not be trapped by the other players. BF's idea of sitting on their left is more traditional. I'm not sure if it matters that much. Since each hand is usually heads up going to the flop, you really only worry about the others trapping you PF and that shouldn't cost much more than 15 if you have to fold. On the other hand, if you know he's betting almost every street, does position matter that much anyway? I guess I still prefer to be to the left.

I'll post a couple of hands I saw and 1 I was in. I don't necessarily have all the details as you don't get to see both hands and you have to go on what the player tells you he was playing sometimes. I'm interested in comments on best lines to take in various circumstances.

JimmyHo

Usually these kinds of players will slow down, or fold, when they face aggression from another player. If you call their flop raise and either bet on the turn or check-raise the turn, they usually fold. I would play more solid poker against this type of player. They often will be aggressive all the way to the river with even bottom pair, and will represent any draws when they come in You can make a lot of $$$ from these players! It usually changes the overall dynamics of the table and makes it a lot more loose. These are the most fun players to have at your table, but you can have huge swings in your stack.

BlondeFish

pkrfce9;357723 wroteI hope we can keep the discussion going.

I'd rather discuss about how to go semi-pro as an electrician or abortionist. ;)

Perhaps the word 'cannon' is not entirely correct. Most of these guys I'm talking about do not appear to be complete idiots. Maybe 'lagtards' would be a better term? Or just 'lags' if we want to be nice? For the most part, these are younger players. I'm guessing with lots of internet experience. Could they be members here? :)

If they're not complete idiots, I think of them more as "hyper LAG", but I know that online players who lose to winning LAGs like to call them LAGtard, spewtard, spew monkey, etc. A hyper LAG can be a winning player if his post-flop skills are that much better than his opponents to overcome his weaker range pre-flop. I played against a lot of hyper LAGs online, but don't notice many in the live games now who play anywhere close to 50% of their hands.

GTA Poker

At 1/2 I usually play approx 60% of my hands. Of course, it depends on the table and how deep I am able to buy in.

I doubt that many of these players are that good. I rarely see any good LAGs @ 1/2.

Basically, regardless of how you describe them it depends whether you feel they are exploitable. If they are not then switch tables. If they are exploitable, I like to sit about 4-5 seats away from them so that I can maximize pots -- this includes having other players at the table between us donating and using more effective bluffs with > 1 player in the hand. Being far away from this player allows you to profit much more than sitting immediately to his left or right.