What Makes your Tournament Selection Decisions?

jontm

Here we go, an attempt to add to our poker content...

For me it's always been a social aspect, which is the reason I play less and define myself as recreational. Regina, Edmonton & Vegas I always either go with friends or have family in that city to visit anyway.

I honestly don't give a shit about rake, as I see it as a tax and know in many cases its gonna be hire because the brand almost guarantees success with it, so they ask their cut...at the end of the day if I think I can profit I play.

Winning or losing to me is whether or not I pocketed more than I started with, expenses are still vacation or staycation, if I win those back too, great.

I asked some extremely successfull players from the East why I didn't see their names at last years WSOPc in Vancouver; we all knew it would see 1000 players and I would have thought a 1.5k was big enough. I asked another pro and they all seemed to answer along the lines of "your min cash should cover your expenses"

I thought it was a pretty good rule of thumb, if you are in it strictly to make money.

As far as outside our borders others also said it was about the destination as well, if they had a ton of friends going and it was a tropical or interesting destination. I asked a few international pros and destinations like London or Monte Carlo they said were very difficult to best given the overhead. So yeah, go deep at WSOPE or forget it.

I seen a ton of players that would never play a $200 + $35 here in Canada all over the Daily Deepstacks, but simply because of prize-pool, stuck to them. 10 try's later, one such "hits" for 28k and I believe that even a recreational player can do this with average skill if he keeps flipping the coin at the end long and often enough.

Here in Alberta or Canada for most events, we don't get enough players in $500 or 1ks to cover things with a min cash I don't think, but shouldn't it be easier to climb the ladder in a smaller field?

Thoughts? More to Add?

GTA Poker

For me it would be something local where I don't feel raped by the rake and where the game has a decent structure and field size. I don't play tournaments much and when I do I want decent value for my money. I also don't care about an extra $10-20 for rake in a tourney as I am not playing these for a living or for a solid winrate...more for a change of pace from my focus which is cash games.

I've always enjoyed poker more in Calgary and Edmonton than anywhere else. The players are just nicer than grinding a tournament with wannabee pros in Vegas or California -- even more-so since Black Friday which seems to have caused every bitter low limit douche to don a pair of shades, a cap, a hoodie, some headphones and diddle on an ipad while berating players and talking strategy after every hand at the table. I never really experienced much of this in AB.

Like your title:)

BlondeFish

I'm not a pro, but if I'm going to play a tournament, I might as well give myself the best chance of winning at least my buy-in back. This is when considering things such as rake and structure becomes important. I hate losing money so I have not bought into any event that has a 30% withholding tax.

jontm;357261 wroteI honestly don't give a shit about rake, as I see it as a tax and know in many cases its gonna be hire because the brand almost guarantees success with it, so they ask their cut...at the end of the day if I think I can profit I play.

But the number of players that can profit in the long run and YOUR profit depends on how much of YOUR buy-in goes to YOUR prize pool.

Gottaget

I generally select tournaments that I feel are good value. Buy-in, rake, structure, possible travel costs are the main factors I use to determine this.

Curious to hear how much the potential for profit plays a factor for others when selecting tournaments.

For example:

Casino A:
$230 buyin, patience factor 37, rake 4%, 30 players max, $6600 est prizepool

vs.

Casino B:
$230 buy-in, patience factor 18.43, rake 13%, 80 players max, $16000 est prizepool

Do you play at Casino A with the better structure and rake or go to Casino B where the prizepool is more than double?

GTA Poker

I'm not going to bother playing a tournament with less than 80 players

jontm

Gottaget;357633 wroteI generally select tournaments that I feel are good value. Buy-in, rake, structure, possible travel costs are the main factors I use to determine this.

Curious to hear how much the potential for profit plays a factor for others when selecting tournaments.

For example:

Casino A:
$230 buyin, patience factor 37, rake 4%, 30 players max, $6600 est prizepool

vs.

Casino B:
$230 buy-in, patience factor 18.43, rake 13%, $16000 est prizepool

Do you play at Casino A with the better structure and rake or go to Casino B where the prizepool is more than double?

I like this question. I'd prefer B. I like more payouts and bigger while they are at it. Even in a great structure, it's going to be really top heavy and you have to win period. If you win B great, but I'm guessing you could walk away with As first place money in a 3 way chop given crap shoot at end.

Or, win enough with a min cash to play A as well

BlondeFish

Great question! The lucky players in the GTA actually have similar options every month. In a previous month, Casino B as in Brantford had a $500+$50 Deep Stack, but I wanted to try my first electronic tournament so I chose Casino A (OLG Slots) with the lower rake, higher PF, higher EV, and I did cash. :)

Assuming similar opponents, let's say that I have roughly ~50% ROI on the part of my buy-in that goes to the prize pool, so my EV for the Casino B $200+$30 is ~$300 (200 * 1.5). With the lower rake & better structure, I expect my EV in Casino A $220+$10 to be at least $330+ (220 * 1.5). This month, I'm playing in Casino B since a bunch of forumers have already staked me for the $500+$50, but if your exact $230 scenario ever came up, I would choose Casino A since I'm an EV-maximizing kind of guy.

Gottaget;357633 wroteCasino A:
$230 buyin, patience factor 37, rake 4%, 30 players max, $6600 est prizepool
vs.
Casino B:
$230 buy-in, patience factor 18.43, rake 13%, $16000 est prizepool
Do you play at Casino A with the better structure and rake or go to Casino B where the prizepool is more than double?

actyper

GTA Poker;357643 wroteI'm not going to bother playing a tournament with less than 80 players

Welcome back to ON

GTA Poker

actyper;357666 wroteWelcome back to ON

is no

Gottaget

Thanks for the input guys.

I'm not going to bother playing a tournament with less than 80 players

What if both events had more than 80 players? ie Casino A -90 players / Casino B - 240?

In my example I would normally choose Casino A because of the better structure that I believe gives me a better chance finishing in the top 10% or better and profiting. Completely agree with Blondefish's post. However, JontM makes valid points that I wonder if I've been underestimating, especially in events that draw huge crowds, but have what I consider to be a crappy structure.

For example:

In Vegas this summer I chose the Golden Nugget $135 events with a 27.17 patience factor over the $130 Rio Daily Deepstacks, with a 7.87 patience factor. The field sizes at the Nugget were between 120-190 on days I played, small, compared to the massive fields at the Rio. I'm wondering if I made a mistake not taking at least one shot at the Rio?

BlondeFish

What are the rake for Rio & Golden Nugget? Are you sure the Rio "Deepstacks" has that horrible a PF of < 8? My friend who like the majority of players has dreamed about going pro but has never calculated PF, Skill Level, rake or a PokerStove analysis, and doesn't care about the 30% tax at Vegas & New York tourneys, :rolleyes: chose to grind these Rio turbos everyday and did not cash.

While the US is the worst country in the world for Canadians to buy into a poker tournament, if somebody put a gun to head to my head, I would narrow my choices to those with the lowest rake. Playing in the WSOP Seniors Event one day may be on my -EV bucket list.

Gottaget;357713 wroteIn Vegas this summer I chose the Golden Nugget $135 events with a 27.17 patience factor over the $130 Rio Daily Deepstacks, with a 7.87 patience factor. The field sizes at the Nugget were between 120-190 on days I played, small, compared to the massive fields at the Rio. I'm wondering if I made a mistake not taking at least one shot at the Rio?

RAM_Eh

I usually don't think too much about the rake. My thought process is the level of the field. If I believe there is +EV in cashing I will play.

Lately I work too much to play or post for that matter so when a tournament comes up that I can play I do. Rake and structure do not matter to much at that time.

I do ok in the cashing side of things too.

GTA Poker

RAM_Eh;357734 wroteI usually don't think too much about the rake. My thought process is the level of the field. If I believe there is +EV in cashing I will play.

Lately I work too much to play or post for that matter so when a tournament comes up that I can play I do. Rake and structure do not matter to much at that time.

I do ok in the cashing side of things too.

Whenever I play a tournament (which isn't that often), I am amazed at how terrible the players are in relation to cash games. Sometimes I think I'm back in 2003. In my experience, $300-1k buy-ins have very weak fields and I would think that field size and structure are probably more important than minor differences in rake...although rake should factor in.

Gottaget

What are the rake for Rio & Golden Nugget?

Rio 22% - $105 + 22.50 + 7.50(staff gratuity) - buy in was $135 not $130 as I said b4
Golden Nugget 28% - $97 + 25 + 10 (optional bonus buy) + 3 (staff gratuity)

GN did a bad job of making all the fees clear. None of the structure sheets clearly stated how much the house fee was. The extra 3% taken off the prizepool for staff was only in the fine print. When registering you were not asked if you would like the $10 bonus buy - they just asked for $135 and stacks were already set up with the bonus included.

Are you sure the Rio "Deepstacks" has that horrible a PF of < 8?

Yes. I just dug out the structure sheet I brought home from Vegas to double check my #'s.

Apparently I was wrong about the "massive fields" for the $135.

Average Fields for 2012 Rio Deepstacks:

$135 - 150
$185 - 323
$235 - 977

Looking at Hendon Mob- this years numbers look similar.

The $235 has a 16.02 patience factor and 17% rake. I was under the false impression that all these events were getting same numbers and I just didn't get it. This makes more sense.

the US is the worst country in the world for Canadians to buy into a poker tournament

Most of the tournaments I play in the US are low buy in with good structures- 1st place is rarely >5k so withholding tax is not a big issue. Seneca is the only place I know of that takes withholding off any wins (and does so off your gross winnings) My husband has banned us from playing there. lol

jontm

Gottaget;357789 wroteRio 22% - $105 + 22.50 + 7.50(staff gratuity) - buy in was $135 not $130 as I said b4
Golden Nugget 28% - $97 + 25 + 10 (optional bonus buy) + 3 (staff gratuity)

GN did a bad job of making all the fees clear. None of the structure sheets clearly stated how much the house fee was. The extra 3% taken off the prizepool for staff was only in the fine print. When registering you were not asked if you would like the $10 bonus buy - they just asked for $135 and stacks were already set up with the bonus included.

Yes. I just dug out the structure sheet I brought home from Vegas to double check my #'s.

Apparently I was wrong about the "massive fields" for the $135.

Average Fields for 2012 Rio Deepstacks:

$135 - 150
$185 - 323
$235 - 977

Looking at Hendon Mob- this years numbers look similar.

The $235 has a 16.02 patience factor and 17% rake. I was under the false impression that all these events were getting same numbers and I just didn't get it. This makes more sense.

Most of the tournaments I play in the US are low buy in with good structures- 1st place is rarely >5k so withholding tax is not a big issue. Seneca is the only place I know of that takes withholding off any wins (and does so off your gross winnings) My husband has banned us from playing there. lol

Factor this in...RIO $235 were 1400-1700 players last week of June while Ladies event and 50k where going on.

Michael Smith of Saskatoon, who is also a bit of a stickler for rake and field size as a pro played these almost exclusively. He cashed in a few, but his 2nd for 28k made it worth while.

I talked to some Calgary regs, husband and wife, one or other cashed each time to almost free-roll, then both went deep for about 10k combined.

They seen a lot of them end in 6 way deals for 30k each, given the low patience factor.

Shitty rake or not, do these sound profitable for good players now?

BlondeFish

Gottaget;357789 wroteRio 22%
Golden Nugget 28%

Wow, those are horrific. No wonder virtually nobody I know who travels to the US to buy into tournaments comes back with a profit. Ontario tournament players are so lucky with at least ten 4%-10% tournaments every single week! :cool2: Next time I win another trip to Vegas but has no cashable option, I would only play the following with zero withholding: WSOP satellites, Survivor tournaments (what pkrfce9 played) that have a prize as close to $5,000 net, or just cash games.

$135 - 150
$185 - 323
$235 - 977
The $235 has a 16.02 patience factor and 17% rake.

If having a profit after each trip is a goal for you, then the smaller fields will have less variance and easier to cash in, e.g., it is easier to outlast 135 players in the $135 than 900 players in the $235, but they are all -EV with the high rake & especially for Canadians if the 30% tax applies. When my goal was to win a Casino Employees Event, I chose the Binion's event with no tax instead of the much larger WSOP event with tax, & came home with the trophy without risking my profit in bigger fields.

Seneca is the only place I know of that takes withholding off any wins (and does so off your gross winnings) My husband has banned us from playing there. lol

He is one smart cookie!

GTA Poker

BlondeFish;357796 wroteWow, those are horrific. No wonder virtually nobody I know who travels to the US to buy into tournaments comes back with a profit. Ontario tournament players are so lucky with at least ten 4%-10% tournaments every single week! :cool2: Next time I win another trip to Vegas but has no cashable option, I would only play the following with zero withholding: WSOP satellites, Survivor tournaments (what pkrfce9 played) that have a prize as close to $5,000 net, or just cash games.
If having a profit after each trip is a goal for you, then the smaller fields will have less variance and easier to cash in, e.g., it is easier to outlast 135 players in the $135 than 900 players in the $235, but they are all -EV with the high rake & especially for Canadians if the 30% tax applies. When my goal was to win a Casino Employees Event, I chose the Binion's event with no tax instead of the much larger WSOP event with tax, & came home with the trophy without risking my profit in bigger fields.

He is one smart cookie!

That's nice but what are the field sizes in the weekly events?

mikelbyl

Speaking as a player (not as the guy from Playground) the most important issue in tournament poker selection is to have decent field sizes to build decent prize pools on a consistent (by which I mean every day) basis.

Popkorn

Too keep it simple, my two biggest factors that decide for me whether I will travel for a tournament is:

1. Expenses
2. Available cash games when I'm knocked out of a tournament.

I stopped going to Vancouver for those reasons. Flight, hotel, car rental was like the most expensive in all of Canada (maybe Toronto is the same, but I live here, so no extra expenses). Also I remember the cash games were like a 4+ hour wait to get on.

Pretty much Canadian casinos are drawing dead when it comes to attracting foreigners for tournaments, they pay their dealers too much instead of letting them keep their own tips, and their gaming rules are too strict. Montreal is a bit better, at least they serve free alcohol and allow iPods at the table, and they have hot waitresses. Too bad the rake is too high.

Vegas is still the best overall. Cheap hotels, cheap flights, cheap car rentals, low minimum wage, lots of competition with casinos to offer better service, and tons to do other than gamble.

But back on the topic of tournaments, just make sure they got at least 50 players and there's more than 5 tournaments in the series is good enough for me.

BlondeFish

To Gottaget, have you found any Las Vegas tournaments this summer that are not -EV for Canadians? Even timex has admitted that he probably can't beat the rake and 30% tax at the WSOP! :o That's one of the main reasons why he chose to play only the Main Event last year.

I have looked at the WSOP, Rio, Venetian, Bellagio, Orleans and Golden Nugget schedules, and aside from cash games and satellites, the three $254+$46 (15.3% fees) Survivor tournaments at the Venetian may be the only +EV tournaments for us to play.

Gottaget;357789 wroteRio 22% - $105 + 22.50 + 7.50(staff gratuity) - buy in was $135 not $130 as I said b4
Golden Nugget 28% - $97 + 25 + 10 (optional bonus buy) + 3 (staff gratuity)
:
The $235 has a 16.02 patience factor and 17% rake.