Making the case for atheism...can it be done?

compuease

Milo;387967 wrote#8 conflicts with #4.

nope, think environment.. much more important imo..

Milo

Well . . . that would depend on your POV. But I will accept your premise, even if I do not necessarily accept your conclusion.

compuease

Milo;387971 wroteWell . . . that would depend on your POV. But I will accept your premise, even if I do not necessarily accept your conclusion.

No conclusion implied, merely food for thought. If 8 doesn't happen, none of the rest will be needed. Perhaps we should rank them in order of importance..?

Milo

Same could be said for #10.

That is what I tell all the greenies complaining about how "we are killing the planet". We are not killing the planet. We are killing ourselves . . . the planet will be just fine, especially after our species is extinct.

trigs

i have a question for all the believers out there. i was thinking about it this morning and i had actually planned to play devil's advocate against the atheists just for fun, but then i quickly realized that i honestly could not think of one single logical argument for it.

the concept i'm talking about is blind faith in god. i am under the impression that all theists believe in this concept (if not, i am very interested in your reasons why).

my question is: what are the possible benefits of "blind faith"?

i don't mean what is the ultimate benefit - that obviously is getting into heaven the theist would say. however, that is just believing and having faith, but why the "blind" part? i'm talking about inherent human virtues or morals or values or anything within the sphere of human understanding.

i mean, obviously god wants us to believe in him, but why does it have to be blindly? according to the bible, god used to show up all the time (burning bush for moses, whirlwind for job, etc.) or send an angel on his behalf (gabriel speaking to mary, etc.) or send his only son who would perform miracles in front of your eyes to get people to believe.

so for hundreds or thousands of years (according to the bible), god did appear and speak occasionally. however, since jesus' death he's been completely silent and we're just supposed to believe these stories that were written down a very long time ago. that is, unless you feel god still speaks to us sometimes - i'd also be very interested in the reasons you believe that not to mention what he's saying nowadays.

however, as far as virtues go or morality or anything good and positive for humanity, how is blind faith a good thing? the only argument i've ever heard that slightly has a positive twist on it was the "god is testing us" argument which imho is a terrible reason for god to expect us to blindly believe. it runs completely contradictory to our powers of rationalism and logic which were (the theist would argue) given to us by god.

basically, i couldn't think of a single benefit for the "believer" to have blind faith. obviously the one who the believers are meant to believe in gets a lot of benefits. god seems kind of greedy in this regard.

please enlighten this poor, lost soul on the virtues, values, and benefits of blind faith because i'm literally too stupid to even think of a single one.

The Prophet 22

I'd be happy to discuss this with you anytime. Give me four hours and then let me ask you one question. Cheers!

Nik's question earlier only required an hour. Yours is a little different

trigs;388553 wrotei have a question for all the believers out there. i was thinking about it this morning and i had actually planned to play devil's advocate against the atheists just for fun, but then i quickly realized that i honestly could not think of one single logical argument for it.

the concept i'm talking about is blind faith in god. i am under the impression that all theists believe in this concept (if not, i am very interested in your reasons why).

my question is: what are the possible benefits of "blind faith"?

i don't mean what is the ultimate benefit - that obviously is getting into heaven the theist would say. however, that is just believing and having faith, but why the "blind" part? i'm talking about inherent human virtues or morals or values or anything within the sphere of human understanding.

i mean, obviously god wants us to believe in him, but why does it have to be blindly? according to the bible, god used to show up all the time (burning bush for moses, whirlwind for job, etc.) or send an angel on his behalf (gabriel speaking to mary, etc.) or send his only son who would perform miracles in front of your eyes to get people to believe.

so for hundreds or thousands of years (according to the bible), god did appear and speak occasionally. however, since jesus' death he's been completely silent and we're just supposed to believe these stories that were written down a very long time ago. that is, unless you feel god still speaks to us sometimes - i'd also be very interested in the reasons you believe that not to mention what he's saying nowadays.

however, as far as virtues go or morality or anything good and positive for humanity, how is blind faith a good thing? the only argument i've ever heard that slightly has a positive twist on it was the "god is testing us" argument which imho is a terrible reason for god to expect us to blindly believe. it runs completely contradictory to our powers of rationalism and logic which were (the theist would argue) given to us by god.

basically, i couldn't think of a single benefit for the "believer" to have blind faith. obviously the one who the believers are meant to believe in gets a lot of benefits. god seems kind of greedy in this regard.

please enlighten this poor, lost soul on the virtues, values, and benefits of blind faith because i'm literally too stupid to even think of a single one.

ReefAquarium

The case against Atheism.

It's just not +ev.

Why?

If you profess atheism you're missing out on the best scam ever.

TV preachers have it down pat.

Give us $$ now.

Get rewarded in heaven.

Best Scam Ever!

trigs

here's one for the theists. it's a little dense, but definitely an interesting read.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/78/Wheres_The_Evidence

Big Mike

trigs;388553 wrotei have a question for all the believers out there. i was thinking about it this morning and i had actually planned to play devil's advocate against the atheists just for fun, but then i quickly realized that i honestly could not think of one single logical argument for it.

the concept i'm talking about is blind faith in god. i am under the impression that all theists believe in this concept (if not, i am very interested in your reasons why).

Much like a discussion about capitalism, I would like to answer/discuss this but I fear we would be bogged down in disagreement about definition.

Because I don't think that I have anything close to blind faith.

Wouldn't the discussion go a lot like this?

Trigs: Blind faith.
Shaun: Not really, because Jesus.
Trigs: Blind faith. No evidence for Jesus
Shaun: But letters written by people who saw him.
Trigs: Blind faith. No evidence of veracity.
Shaun: But many miracles since then.
Trigs: Blind faith, science explains.
Shaun: But testimony of lives changed.
Trigs: Blind faith. People deceived or deluded.

Shaun: Oh.

At any rate, nowhere in the Bible are people expected to or asked to have a blind faith. Blind faith seems awfully foolish to me, really; and christianity doesn't require it at all imo.

Big Mike

trigs;388605 wrotehere's one for the theists. it's a little dense, but definitely an interesting read.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/78/Wheres_The_Evidence

Very interesting read, thanks!

trigs

Big Mike;388606 wroteMuch like a discussion about capitalism, I would like to answer/discuss this but I fear we would be bogged down in disagreement about definition.

Because I don't think that I have anything close to blind faith.

Wouldn't the discussion go a lot like this?

Trigs: Blind faith.
Shaun: Not really, because Jesus.
Trigs: Blind faith. No evidence for Jesus
Shaun: But letters written by people who saw him.
Trigs: Blind faith. No evidence of veracity.
Shaun: But many miracles since then.
Trigs: Blind faith, science explains.
Shaun: But testimony of lives changed.
Trigs: Blind faith. People deceived or deluded.

Shaun: Oh.

At any rate, nowhere in the Bible are people expected to or asked to have a blind faith. Blind faith seems awfully foolish to me, really; and christianity doesn't require it at all imo.

yes, i figured that there would be some people that would say that they do not have (or have to have) blind faith. however, even if i conceded that there was an actual man named jesus, and miracles do occasionally happen, and many people's lives have changed for the better due to religious belief, none of those directly suggest that there is a god. you still have to require on faith of his existence, would you not?

Milo

trigs;388609 wroteyes, i figured that there would be some people that would say that they do not have (or have to have) blind faith. however, even if i conceded that there was an actual man named jesus, and miracles do occasionally happen, and many people's lives have changed for the better due to religious belief, none of those directly suggest that there is a god. you still have to require on faith of his existence, would you not?

Why wouldn't you concede that Jesus lived?

Jesus of Nazareth is an historically factual person, based on Roman documents of the time period. The names of his parents are on record, as well.

Does that PROVE he was the Son of God. No . . . but it does prove a small part of the story.

Big Mike

trigs;388609 wrotehowever, even if i conceded that there was an actual man named jesus, and miracles do occasionally happen, and many people's lives have changed for the better due to religious belief, none of those directly suggest that there is a god. you still have to require on faith of his existence, would you not?

Those things on their own, no, not directly. They would be weak evidence, as the article you linked suggested.

If the man called Jesus was crucified, rose from the dead on the third day, and later ascended to heaven? Well I'd say that would be a bit stronger proof, right? :)

The Prophet 22

One of the things I have learned over the years when talking with atheists, is learning when to walk away. I don’t have a problem having a learned discussion about things, but I feel the theist gives the atheist to big a platform to spew their utter nonsense and in the end, it becomes counterproductive as I feel they [atheist] are just looking for a fight and not really looking for the truth. The purpose of this thread was to allow the atheist to build a case against theism based on facts, history, logic and sound reasoning. The truth of the matter is it hasn’t been done. The best argument against theism is to call the theistic belief “blind faith”. Big Mike and Milo, you can continue discussion the as you wish, but I am done for a while anyway.

Prophet22

compuease

The Prophet 22;388695 wroteOne of the things I have learned over the years when talking with theists, is learning when to walk away. I don’t have a problem having a learned discussion about things, but I feel the atheist gives the theist to big a platform to spew their utter nonsense and in the end, it becomes counterproductive as I feel they [theists] are just looking for a fight and not really looking for the truth. The purpose of this thread was to allow the theist to build a case against atheism based on facts, history, logic and sound reasoning. The truth of the matter is it hasn’t been done.

fyp.. You do realize that it could point either way? FYI, I'm more of a "show me" kinda guy.. I think it come from my healthy scientific kinda thought process.

Much love Brent..:D

trigs

question for the theists: how do you know your god is the right one?

even if the atheist concedes that there is in fact a god that created us and watches over us (and maybe intervenes every once in a while depending on your personal beliefs), how can you know that it is YOUR god that is doing it?

if you were born into a muslim family, would you have converted to catholicism or christianity on your own? (i'm assuming that those are the only two groups represented by the theists in this thread.) have you studied all the other religions and came to the conclusion that your religion is in fact the best one? wait, scratch that. your religion is the only true one.

or are you under the impression that even if you picked the wrong god/religion, the real god will still forgive you and allow you into heaven? if yes to this question, won't he also forgive the atheists and allow them into heaven as well?

i just have to say that i am always amazed at how theists (no matter their specific religion) pretty much 99% of the time just happened to be born into a family that just happened to have chosen the "right" religion to teach their children. at least, that's what all of them think. i guess they are just among the luckiest people in the world. sucks to have atheist parents who ruined your life, or muslim parents, or whatever other religion that is "not true".

i'm starting to think that there are actually very few true "theists" in the world. they are instead simply dogmatists who have never considered all the alternatives.

is faith in the wrong god grounds for eternal damnation? is questioning faith grounds for eternal damnation? where do you draw the line?

isn't it the burden of the theist to prove their religion true and all others false in order for them to know they have the right, true religion?

trigs

Milo;388617 wroteWhy wouldn't you concede that Jesus lived?

Jesus of Nazareth is an historically factual person, based on Roman documents of the time period. The names of his parents are on record, as well.

Does that PROVE he was the Son of God. No . . . but it does prove a small part of the story.

btw milo, i did read this comment but just chose to ignore it for obvious reasons (well, obvious to me at least). i only recently took you off my ignore list at my own peril.

The Prophet 22

You ask a lot of great questions! Some of which I happen to have thought about for a long long time. I don't mind having these discussion with people who are truly searching. Like I said earlier, I believe my faith isn't "totally blind" as you put it. I believe there is some good answers to the questions you are asking. I believe there is logic and reason in my faith. But I also know when not to be dragged into a fight for the sake of fighting. I believe you are searching for truth and if you don't want to talk in person, you have my email address.

Brent

Ps my goal was 10,000 views and you are helping to bring that to a reality.

trigs;388807 wrotequestion for the theists: how do you know your god is the right one?

even if the atheist concedes that there is in fact a god that created us and watches over us (and maybe intervenes every once in a while depending on your personal beliefs), how can you know that it is YOUR god that is doing it?

if you were born into a muslim family, would you have converted to catholicism or christianity on your own? (i'm assuming that those are the only two groups represented by the theists in this thread.) have you studied all the other religions and came to the conclusion that your religion is in fact the best one? wait, scratch that. your religion is the only true one.

or are you under the impression that even if you picked the wrong god/religion, the real god will still forgive you and allow you into heaven? if yes to this question, won't he also forgive the atheists and allow them into heaven as well?

i just have to say that i am always amazed at how theists (no matter their specific religion) pretty much 99% of the time just happened to be born into a family that just happened to have chosen the "right" religion to teach their children. at least, that's what all of them think. i guess they are just among the luckiest people in the world. sucks to have atheist parents who ruined your life, or muslim parents, or whatever other religion that is "not true".

i'm starting to think that there are actually very few true "theists" in the world. they are instead simply dogmatists who have never considered all the alternatives.

is faith in the wrong god grounds for eternal damnation? is questioning faith grounds for eternal damnation? where do you draw the line?

isn't it the burden of the theist to prove their religion true and all others false in order for them to know they have the right, true religion?

trigs

sorry for not meeting in person brent. there are many reasons for that. i'm lazy. i'm shy. i'm socially awkward. i have almost debilitating nervousness when going out into public especially when i am going to be around strangers. also, i'd like to keep this a public discussion as more people can learn and participate. not to mention, i'm probably just fucking crazy in general and i really should be limiting the amount of people that i associate with before something bad happens. i've been recently considering quitting my job because my co-workers are starting to get to know me too well and that's not a good thing.

i've actually tried multiple times to stop posting on this forum, but i'm weak and i can't stop myself.

compuease

You're one of us trigs, we're with ya... No strangers here, well... maybe a few.. You have played some home games on here haven't you? Maybe make a point of playing in the next Royal, you would love it and get to know a lot of us...

Oh yea, we could tell you to "FU trigs" in person.;)

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