1/2 is not beatable in the long run?

BlondeFish

Having played at Woodbine with two other forumers and each of us playing different stakes, it got me thinking if 1/2 is very difficult to beat in the long run because of the 10% rake. I used to think that a max rake of $5 is beatable, but somebody argued that 1/2 at Woodbine or anywhere else is unbeatable if the rake is 10%.

I now agree with him as a it seems a lot of 1/2 players at Woodbine don't have much more than the minimum $60 cash. From what I have seen so far, there are a lot more who buy-in for $60-$100 those who buy in for 100 BB $200 to the $300 maximum. Some buy-in only for $60, lose a pot, then nurse their micro stack until they are eventually forced to go all-in with no fold equity. When they bust out, they either go home or go to the ATM and when they eventually go back to the empty seat, they buy back in for only $60. :rolleyes:

There are way too many pots <= $50 that are being raked for the full 10%. The average stack in many of the 1/2 tables is below $300, especially if you exclude the one huge stack who has everybody else covered and won't stay much longer. With roughly $200 in rake disappearing from the electronic table every hour, most tables have too many short stacks to be beatable.

Has anybody here played 1/2 live with a statistically significant sample size over the years and come out ahead of the 10% rake? I remember learning to play cash games through a NO-RAKE 1/2 game, and I won in that. I then skipped to 2/5 at Fallsview because that was the lowest stake available when I was grinding the WPT tournaments.

From the many games that I have dealt (or watched while playing a tournament), I know that 1/2+ games in underground clubs along with 2/5 Limit at the CNE (with $7.50 max rake) are virtually unbeatable in the long run. I never fell into the trap of slowly being raked to death at Casino Niagara/Seneca/Rama 1/2, especially with all Niagara Falls casinos having the terrible BBJ extra rake.

GTA Poker

tldr it all...is it 10% no cap or 5 max?

I beat 1/2 300max for years in Alberta, but those were the softest games I ever saw in my life (Calgary and Edmonton). I think max rake was $5, but can't recall...T8 would know. Lots of table selection involved. It is probably much harder to table select on electronic tables.

I would never even sit in a 1/2 game that is 10% rake no cap...10% 5 max is very beatable IMO...of course, it depends on much more than just the rake structure as to whether a game is beatable. The easiest way to tell if a game is beatable is average preflop raise sizing relative to blinds and stack sizes IMO.

JimmyHo

Beatable for a decent living is very tough. Why not just play the higher limits where the rake is the same? Thought the 5/5 max rake was also $5 max with no jackpot. personally, I can't take $60 stacks seriously. I would rather play them blind just to get a bigger stack at the table.

Btw, will likely be at Woodbine quite a bit this summer. My goal is to grind 2/5 and 5/5 for $2k a week. Very tough, I know, but have to have a plan in place.

compuease

pokerJAH;355523 wrote Btw, will likely be at Woodbine quite a bit this summer. My goal is to grind 2/5 and 5/5 for $2k a week. Very tough, I know, but have to have a plan in place.

I really don't think this is possible, even if you can get a table running 40 hours that's 10BB per hour... Especially since I noticed (from small sample size) that even 5/5 people are buying in short, certainly not max..
And shouldn't you not set monetary goals, only determining to play each hand optimally regardless of result? $2K per week is 100K per year, has anyone ever been able to do that at 5/5 or below? Just wondering...

GTA Poker

Le sigh

JimmyHo

Very tough, I know. Think they usually have 5/5 running most afternoons, although I usually go Thursday or Fridays. Most of the 5/5 players are regulars but they do buy in deep, multiple times. It has always been running when I was there.

Plan to start around noon and play each day until I make a $500 profit. Then call it a day. Will cap each session at 5-6 hours if down or under the daily profit. Cap the number of buyins as well. May play longer if really good table. Will see how the first week goes. #updatestofollow

GTA Poker

pokerJAH;355531 wroteVery tough, I know. Think they usually have 5/5 running most afternoons, although I usually go Thursday or Fridays. It has always been running when I was there. Plan to start around noon and play each day until I make a $500 profit. Then call it a day. Will cap each session at 5-6 hours if down or under the daily profit. Cap the number of buyins as well. May play longer if really good table. Will see how the week goes. #updatestofollow

I don't understand. Didn't you quit playing live cash a year or two ago because you weren't winning? Are these games so much softer that you can go from that to crushing them? It sounds like you are talking about making $100/h which is just a silly number.

JimmyHo

GTA Poker;355532 wroteI don't understand. Didn't you quit playing live cash a year or two ago because you weren't winning? Are these games so much softer that you can go from that to crushing them? It sounds like you are talking about making $100/h which is just a silly number.

Welcome back btw, have never quit live cash poker. Play once or twice per week usually. So far at around $22/ hour for 2013 playing mainly 1/2 ($400 max) and 2/5 (total hours 230) Half way to 2013 goal of making $10k playing live cash games. Have some extra vacation time this summer so may spend a week grinding at WB. If I don't get bored after a couple days of grinding. $100/hr is very difficult but achievable based on the level of play I have seen at WB so far. I agree doing it consistently all year would be virtually impossible.

GTA Poker

pokerJAH;355533 wroteWelcome back btw, have never quit live cash poker. Play once or twice per week usually. So far at around $22/ hour for 2013 playing mainly 1/2 ($400 max) and 2/5 (total hours 230) Half way to 2013 goal of making $10k playing live cash games. Have some extra vacation time this summer so may spend a week grinding at WB. If I don't get bored after a couple days of grinding. $100/hr is very difficult but achievable based on the level of play I have seen at WB so far. I agree doing it consistently all year would be virtually impossible.

GL then. Highly doubt $100/h is possible long term at 2/5 even if it is 1k max and plays deep.

Don't waste your whole summer indoors playing poker.

Aren't you coming to California sometime this month?

JimmyHo

GTA Poker;355534 wroteGL then. Highly doubt $100/h is possible long term at 2/5 even if it is 1k max and plays deep.

Don't waste your whole summer indoors playing poker.

Aren't you coming to California sometime this month?

Starting to feel like old times again GTA :) You were incognito on my recent trip to Vegas in June. Have been in Texas and Florida the last two weeks. Played at Winstar in Oklahoma and Pomona Beach (near Fort Lauderdale) the last couple nights.

I agree, won't waste all my time playing poker. By next week, the plan could be all up in the air. Kind of like your plan to stay away from the forum for a year.

GTA Poker

G a b b o

Wetts1012

pokerJAH;355531 wrote
Plan to start around noon and play each day until I make a $500 profit. Then call it a day.

This is a horrible plan. I hope you understand this. Your losing sessions will destroy you using this model.

GTA Poker

Wetts1012;355747 wroteThis is a horrible plan. I hope you understand this. Your losing sessions will destroy you using this model.

Um...he has a plan

ReefAquarium

pokerJAH;355531 wrote
Plan to start around noon and play each day until I make a $500 profit. Then call it a day. Will cap each session at 5-6 hours if down or under the daily profit. Cap the number of buyins as well. May play longer if really good table. Will see how the first week goes. #updatestofollow

I'd keep playing if the table is good and move tables if it's bad.
I wouldn't have a $$$ goal per day.

If you want to meet up and compare notes I'm at woodbine a lot!

JimmyHo

two buy-ins in the whole before I even got started...flush over flush over flush...flop nut straight and get turned by better straight...got to love Woodbine! Don't think I can play much there during the week as the 5/5 game is the same 8 players every day.

Card Dead

Seems like your poker season is about the same as the Jays' season.

Big plans and then done before you get started.

Maybe we should call you AA from now on.

^-^

GTA Poker

Didn't see this coming

BlondeFish

Sounds like how my night started at Fallsview losing two all-ins. Then I saw 13CARDS whom I have rarely seen in the poker room since the good ole' WPT days. There was only one forumer I recognized and he was also the only other Fallsview grinder from the forum during the WPT frenzy of 2008! My luck changed, winning all my all-ins for the rest of the night, and cashed out ahead.

It's too bad that 13CARDS no longer contributes his poker-related posts in what is supposed to be a poker forum. Hopefully, he will be involved in the upcoming Fallsview Poker Classic.

As for Woodbine 5/5, you and I should talk...

pokerJAH;355768 wrotetwo buy-ins in the whole before I even got started...
Don't think I can play much there during the week as the 5/5 game is the same 8 players every day.

JimmyHo

no more messing with the GTA voodoo, only gets me into trouble.

JimmyHo

Card Dead;355770 wroteBig plans and then done before you get started.

Only getting started buddy...all I can do is get my money in ahead and push and pray.