Good spot bad call?

anhdy

Just busted from the brantford 550 deepstack and theres one hand in particular thats still running through my head.

Starting stack 15k blinds 50/100 no antes yet. So far the table has been pretty tight. Mostly folding around to the CO/BTN and they open and Cbet to take down pots really no action yet. I've taken down a few pots so far like this without ever going to showdown. Villain is in his mid 50's and seems tight ABC.

Folds around to villain who opens to 350 from the CO. BTN folds SB folds, i call from BB with Jh 7h

Flop comes 7c 4s 5d. (pot 750 )

I check, villain bets 500. I flat call.

Turn comes 7c 4s 5d Ad. ( pot 1750 )

I check, villain bets 1000. I was putting him on a overpair to the board till the ace showed up and possibly AK/AQ. i took out bigaces in his range from the smallest bet on turn on a board thats getting pretty draw heavy plus i just got the feeling he isn't the type to cbet with a missed Ace also. I decided to stick to my read and raise. Simply because if I did just flat called here he would check back all his pairs on the river.

So i checkraised to 2500. He thinks for abit and calls.
Pot ( 6750 )

River; 7c 4s 5d Ad 5h

I bet out 4700 and he slowly counts out the chips in his hand struggles for abit and calls. Showing Kd Kh.

Been thinking of my bet sizing on the way home and was wondering if i made a mistake with the value bet bluff on the river. Maybe a shove was the best option against a stubborn player attached to Kings, but i was sitting with 12k left at the time and an overbet shove seems really unnecessary since i put him on a pocket pair and if he had AK/AQ he was calling anyways.

Just wanted a second opinion on the hand, thanks.

Andy

Wetts1012

your range is very polar here, and I take alot of your nut hands out of range based on pre and flop action.

So your line doesnt make much sense OTT unless you have diamonds or a set.

Its just a weird hand where I would likely tank call as well, fold pre imo - because I dont think the sizing could have been changed villains decision.

anhdy

I was trying to rep 2 pair combos/sets +Ace rag combos. Since the turn was a great card for his range, i figured it had to look strong to checkraise him on the Ace turn. i ruled out raising the flop because i wanted to setup a credible story with my line for turn/river play. 2ndly, most players would probably come over the top on that flop. Once he bet 1k on the turn i felt his hand was really faceup by then ( base on feel during the hand )
Given the situation and we know villain isn't happy about the Ace do we always check/fold turn because repping a credible hand is to expensive with turn n river play?
Like if villain accidentally exposed his hand preflop what would be the most convincing line to take in this spot n board texture.

Wetts1012

Either hes a competent old guy or hes not, either way its a tough spot.

If hes competent your line is strange, and its polar so maybe he folds and maybe he calls. (albeit probably optimal in terms of best possible line to fold out overpairs OTF)

If hes not competent hes not folding KK anyway.

Moral of the story: Dont bluff old nits, especially at Brantford!

marban

Wetts1012;352324 wroteEither hes a competent old guy or hes not, either way its a tough spot.

If hes competent your line is strange, and its polar so maybe he folds and maybe he calls. (albeit probably optimal in terms of best possible line to fold out overpairs OTF)

If hes not competent hes not folding KK anyway.

Moral of the story: Dont bluff old nits, especially at Brantford!

im 63, and im bluffable lol...but to a guy in his 50,s raising over 3x, i insta fold my j7 suited or not...and real old guys like donk betting at brantford..a guy older than me lead out after calling my prelop raise, i just 3 bet with air and he insta folded..lol..:)

PocketsTwos

OP

I'm the old (not mid-50's), nitty ABC player (TAG), that occasionally floats with AK, and btw I don't get attached to hands...even AA.

Your story didn't make sense, and my read was right as it turned out.

GG

anhdy

PocketsTwos;352361 wroteOP

I'm the old (not mid-50's), nitty ABC player (TAG), that occasionally floats with AK, and btw I don't get attached to hands...even AA.

Your story didn't make sense, and my read was right as it turned out.

GG

I put you on a pocket pair. You had a pocket pair. The discussion is about how i could of played the hand to get you to fold in this situation If i knew what you had. I took the best possible line i thought would of seemed convincing but obviously it didn't work. Thus the discussion is about the other possible lines to take On flop/turn/river + bet sizing.

"Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents' cards, they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see all their cards, they lose" David Sklansky

That quote basically sums up what i'm trying to get at.

PocketsTwos

anhdy;352364 wroteI put you on a pocket pair. You had a pocket pair. The discussion is about how i could of played the hand to get you to fold in this situation If i knew what you had. I took the best possible line i thought would of seemed convincing but obviously it didn't work. Thus the discussion is about the other possible lines to take On flop/turn/river + bet sizing.

"Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents' cards, they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see all their cards, they lose" David Sklansky

That quote basically sums up what i'm trying to get at.

Sorry, i didn't mean your 'story' here as you described it (although I do think there was one more limper MP)...the standard raise was 2.5x at the table if I recall correctly.

I meant the story/line you tried to rep during the hand we played..

After you flatted my OTF bet I put you on a draw or a small pair. I thought that you probably thought that I missed my hand (AK AQ) and that you may have the best hand at this point. Indeed, I didn't like seeing the A on the turn but, I am not auto-folding to a 1/4 pot-sized re-raise here. The 5 on the river didn't change a thing (unless of course you got lucky with say 56 suited - then nh). When you lead out on the river I did tank a bit. I thought there was a good chance you were bluffing in this spot based that you were on the aggro side up to that point in the tournament IMO. I think my hand is good here at least 80% here.

Okay, why is it that younger guys always peg older guys as tight, nitty, ABC type players. I know that my lack of hair makes me look older but, c'mon - I'm not even 50 yet! :) If this is my image though - then I'm quite happy to exploit it... Also OP, we have like zero hand history and we were only maybe an hour into the tournament - how did you come up with your 'ABC' script? I know you are a skilled player - so how would you have played my hand differently in my spot?

PocketsTwos

I just wanted to add my thought process for the smallish ($1000.00) bet on the turn into a pot of $1670.00. I didn't want to bloat the pot too much going in with one pair here, and at the same time, I wanted to deny you the proper odds for drawing out on gutter ball straight type card. I also felt it gave me a little more room to manouver in case you re-raised, which you did.

anhdy

I don't mean anything bad by tight ABC lol. That just saying someone is straightforward ( to me atleast ). I don't think you could of played the hand any differently but to call down any raise wouldn't make sense on turn or river. You got max value out of me so props to that. I would of raise abit more in your spot on the turn because of draws and deter players from making a play because of the smallest bet and leaving you in a toughspot. At the cost of keeping the pot small i believe it turned your hand faceup and if i feel that you want to play a small pot im going to do my best to play a big one
I think in this hand was the main deciding factor was position. Leading into you on the turn was out of the question since you are much more likely to hold an A then me. So betting there wouldn't make sense. The only A's i could rep that would call the flop were A3s - A8, but only the ones that made 2 pair would of checkraise. So i think my range was polar towards air or 2pairs/sets. Which is a badspot. Had i been in position maybe it would of worked.

PocketsTwos

I agree - in position it may have worked. I felt that I had narrowed your range down after the PF and OTF action. You did put me to a tough decision on the end there, and if you had shoved on the river - I can't say what I would have done in that spot. These days I find a lot of players are shoving on the river if they have a strong hand instead of value betting. I also didn't put you on a set when you check raised on the turn...I think maybe you would have just check-called again if you had it. Does that make any sense?

anhdy

Yeah its quite possible. If im putting you on a pair and not an Ace, checkraising would only work towards getting you to fold a dominated hand that might bet out again on the river. that's assuming you know i put on a pocket pair, which is going pretty deep in leveling and given our very limited hand history i don't think that's the case.