CPF Online tournament hand analysis

yavvy

DrTyore;351768 wrote The first raiser has a hand he likes, and you have a mediocre hand. If there was no raise in front of you, and you had a good position, I don't mind raising either. I tend towards 2.5-3xBB myself, depending on the table of course, sometimes you have to up that or can lower it.

So in this position for such a small raise I put a guy on suited connectors or Aq or A10 or something. I figure the small raise as an attempt to prevent much raising because anyone with a similar hand now is just going to call.. unless they have a really nice hand in which case they reraise and you bought some information. So I disregard the raise and continue on with my plan.

It was still a moderate hand imo and I feel like it gets rid of other limpers, which would have called if I called..maybe.

DrTyore;351768 wrote When you re-raise, it shows a lot of strength, but in this case you don't have a lot of strength.

I have been watching poker on TV and taking some advice in this very forum.
I have been told the correct order of operations in this situation is
Raise/fold/call
I gave myself the appearance of strength should I need to attempt to bluff, I have a sneaky hand if I hit and its still a very moderate pot to bale on.

I am prepared to invest in the pots I plan to play..Im sure poker software would spot this as a leak.. Im sure that makes me a loose player but thats my current thinking.

IDK .. I still don't think it was a bad play. But I bow before you all - I dont consider myself anything more than an occasional player.

For you all it just means you have to widen your range on me :-\

yavvy

pokerJAH;338532 wroteOrder of operation : Raise/Fold/Call, Fold/Raise/Call

- ALWAYS play a pair if your stack and your opponents are at least 10x the pre-flop raise
- don't play too many hands
- TPTK no good in a cash game
- careful who you try to bluff; hard to get players off draws or middle pair at 1/2. As noted, play your made hands aggressively (don't slow play to get rivered)

this post comes to mind

DrTyore

A problem with blanket general statements...

Poker is a very context specific game sometimes. Easy games are "ABC" poker, and that's really what that post is referencing. pokerJAH is advocating a mindset of aggression - which is winning poker - when saying Raise/Fold/Call, Fold/Raise/Call. Calling is often the worst option (but not always) due to several things, not the least of which that a call is either you putting money in behind, or not getting more money in when you're ahead. Generally, the most aggressive +EV move is the best (EV means expected value, or "for every dollar I put it, how much is it making me" kinda thing).

When he says play a pair if your stack & opponents are 10x the raise, that's actually advocating calling oddly enough, and is somewhat the crux of this hand discussion. Say you have 22, a lousy pair. If there's a raise to $5, and you both have >$50, it's a call because if you hit a 2, you're getting implied odds (if you hit, you're taking a lot of his money, if not all). If the guy only has $10 behind him, it's not worthwhile really. If he has a lot, you can try to take a large gash of that. Also, if you have 22, and he has AA? You don't want to be putting money in behind like that pre-flop. If you hit huge on the flop? You're getting a lot of his money.

TPTK no good in cash game - I kinda think this is misleading advice. I've played games where it was surprising what the winning hand was strength wise. The better answer is usually "Depends" for anything poker related. If JAH was referring to a specific cash game, he's still likely saying "In this game, TPTK is either going to make you a little bit of money because everyone will fold to your bets, or lose you a lot of money because they have better than that if they're still around".

The bluff advice is pretty solid, and another kind of interesting phenomenon in poker (like the Super strong hands not making you a lot of money). Bad players will beat good players with some frequency due to the fact that they will call down no matter what if they "hit the board". This means a good, aggressive player, who is betting two over cards with a flush draw, or some sort of reason they may have, will get called down by the guy who hit bottom pair with a pretty Ace kicker. A good player will also fold when their odds aren't right for a draw, where a bad player will call for gutshot straights and such only to end up hitting middle pair to suss out the bluff.

Mark

Fighting Shibas

For my part, I want to play that hand in the position I was in. A-10 is a hand I like to see flops with, so I called the re-raise. After the flop I bet slightly less than half the pot to try and get a read where I stood in the hand. On the turn I hit second best trips so I thought I was good, didn't put avvy on pocket sixes. So I bet about half the pot again, when avvy went all in for another 185 chips, I was committed and as I said, I though my trips were good. I guess I did make some bad decisions, but I am a recreation player that is trying to improve every session, as we all should be. So I guess I went wrong somewhere, maybe should have re-raised pre-flop or just tossed that hand, but I played it the best way I know how and I lost the pot. Lesson learned I guess. Interested to see some thoughts on my actions in the hand. Please be gentle though.:)

DrTyore

Fighting Shibas;351781 wroteFor my part, I want to play that hand in the position I was in. A-10 is a hand I like to see flops with, so I called the re-raise. After the flop I bet slightly less than half the pot to try and get a read where I stood in the hand. On the turn I hit second best trips so I thought I was good, didn't put avvy on pocket sixes. So I bet about half the pot again, when avvy went all in for another 185 chips, I was committed and as I said, I though my trips were good. I guess I did make some bad decisions, but I am a recreation player that is trying to improve every session, as we all should be. So I guess I went wrong somewhere, maybe should have re-raised pre-flop or just tossed that hand, but I played it the best way I know how and I lost the pot. Lesson learned I guess. Interested to see some thoughts on my actions in the hand. Please be gentle though.:)

AT is a bitch of a hand for me too. I'm raising with it if I'm going to play it, and if there's a raise in front, I'll consider who the raiser is (those PT stats come in handy here), and consider what I'll do then. UTG is the worst place to get AT IMO.

My questions around your play is more your bet sizing. You tend to min-raise a lot, but not exclusively. I see a lot of people on the min-raise bandwagon these days, but I myself am not a fan. Is this strategy something you've read / discussed with someone, or something you yourself tend towards? Is there reasoning?

Mark

Wetts1012

Fighting Shibas;351781 wroteFor my part, I want to play that hand in the position I was in. A-10 is a hand I like to see flops with, so I called the re-raise.

I think this is a leak.

ATo is probably not a hand you want to see flops with, because youre killed on most flops you connect with (and you dont connect with many!).

moose

Yeah, you wouldn't play 10-6, you can still make a top pr 10 with it but your draw sucks.

Flopping the straight with a 3 gapper is pretty rare.

If you do actually get some kind of draw with A10, you are likely already behind to Abetter kicker, Abetterdraw, twopr.

PocketsTwos

I couldn't agree more with Wetts..

A10o looks a lot better than it plays. I think a lot of low stakes players will play this type of hand...I know I use to, and now I don't give into the temptation. This type of hand falls into a category of what I like to call "middling hands" (I believe Skalansky has a different term)...that ends up costing you a lot of money. You rarely flop the nuts with it, and when you do catch part of it on the flop (ie A 6 2), what do you do now, especially when you are OP? I'm sure others here can explain the "numbers" of why this type of hand is -EV, but I can assure you I fold hands like this much more frequently now and my results have improved because of it.

Milo

yavvy;351769 wroteNo coin toss on that one.. rather happy with the decision

The coin toss was my strategic device to randomize my play . . . I find it helps.

marban

DrTyore;351768 wroteI agree with Wetts here... think of it like this:

The first raiser has a hand he likes, and you have a mediocre hand. If there was no raise in front of you, and you had a good position, I don't mind raising either. I tend towards 2.5-3xBB myself, depending on the table of course, sometimes you have to up that or can lower it.

Now, if you just call, and the action ends, you're now putting a low amount of money on a moderate (again, can't stress this enough AT BEST) hand. It has the potential (roughly 1/8 times IIRC) to hit a monster hand with another 6 on the flop. Ideally, you get a board that your hidden trips can stack a guy marrying top pair kinda thing.

When you re-raise, it shows a lot of strength, but in this case you don't have a lot of strength. Now, three things can happen with the original raiser. He can fold, and you win a mid-sized pot considering it's preflop. That's good! He can call, and you see a flop, which could be good (hit a set) or bad (scary board). Or he can re-raise, which in most cases will put you into a decision for a lot of your chips for a mediocre hand.

To go back to the 2nd option there, which happened in this case. He calls. Now think of all the scary boards that exist for 66! You're beat by any pair from 7-->A if he hits it, and only have about an 8% chance of passing him with your set on the turn/river. Further, unless you know a person outstandingly well, you're facing a wide range of hands they could be playing.

Example: A completely average player, tight but aggressive, not steaming.

You see a flop of A - T - 2 rainbow

Well, he raised in an early position, that Ace sucks to see, you're probably beat.

You see a flop of K - 9 - 4 rainbow

Well, is he playing AK like that? What about KQ? What about a medium, but bigger pair than ours like JJ / TT / 99? Am I beat?

You see a flop of J - 4 - 2 (2 clubs)

Well shit, did he play AJ like that? Maybe he has AK and 2 clubs, which would actually make him a favorite to win the hand.... Am I beat?

When wetts mentioned turning a value into a bluff, he was (correct me if I'm wrong) referring to the potentially huge hand of a set. One of the things I found most interesting when I was first picking up the game was the paradox of the best best hands - they're hardly beat, but they don't make you much money! A royal flush would have to have like A - Q - J on the board, and you'd have KT (which WTF were you doing in the hand with?). So you can't be beat, but only a few hands are going to really pay you off (AA, QQ, JJ, Ax and maybe some other flushes).

A board of A - 6 - J though, where you have 66, you're going to get paid a LOT by AJ, AK, AQ, etc. Three of a kind is a good hand, that will make you a lot of money.

Mark

coles notes?..set mining....maybe i should get back into these games if yavvy bebomes a regular...lol.....kidding..:D

Wetts1012

yavvy;351761 wroteso Im interested to know how you would have played 66 in my position ? fold ?

Thats how I would play those usually ..but it depends on the table massively. Sometimes I call and sometimes I go 10x.

So now I know where you got the 10x from.

I think you misinterpreted the point of Pokerjahs post that you quoted. He wasnt saying you should 10x all mid small pairs.

EdtheTed

In both hands I think my folds showed extreme skillage!

I believe set mining to be very important for most tournaments and Barry Greenstein agrees with me.

I was surprised when Mark said he was going to post this because, post-flop, the 'hand almost played itself'. Pre-flop we have:

Dealt to DrTyore [8d Jd]
wct hemi: raises 50 to 100
wildbill7145: folds
Buzzzardd: folds
TedtheEd: folds
theyavvy: raises 150 to 250
....wct hemi: calls 150

so hemi min-raises with A10. I would say you'd want a 3x the bb raise in that situation, but 2x is not a crime. With 66 I'd call up to a 5x anyway.

Now "theyavvy: raises 150 to 250". That seems genuinely to be "raising lite" but within the context of the original min-raise, and the fact that you are going to miss the flop most of the time, it is not a bad way to extract another 150 from Hemi. Assuming both miss the flop, theyavvy can bet again and hemi probably folds. As it turns out, they both hit the flop and fireworks ensue. Or, as I said above, 'the hand basically plays itself' post-flop.

So I think the only criticism might be towards the original min-raise.

My final comment is related to theavvy's comment: "So I caught trips, I put the other guy on a 10 and decided to slow play." The strategy is sound, but you did not "catch trips", you flopped a set. There is a big difference between trips and a set since the latter is much more likely to develop into a full house. Unfortunately for hemi, he was the one who "caught trips". If anything, this hand demonstrates how different trips and a set really are.

Richard~

Wetts1012;351762 wroteI flat. But thats me. 10x is prob not very good tho....

You have a value hand, in position.

If UTG 4 bets you you obviously have to fold, and thats a waste of a value hand.

now that we're picking your brain, what would your logic be with the 66s OOP at like a 7 handed table in a similar spot?

Wetts1012

Richard~;351971 wrotenow that we're picking your brain, what would your logic be with the 66s OOP at like a 7 handed table in a similar spot?

I think youre asking how I would play 66s if Im UTG here (or similarly OOP in Some nature)?

Richard~

Wetts1012;351983 wroteI think youre asking how I would play 66s if Im UTG here (or similarly OOP in Some nature)?

I meant from the BB, possibly SB vs a early mid pos minraise

DrTyore

Mocked, but... an expertly played hand... thoughts?

PokerStars Home Game Hand #97514751572: {Canada's Poker Forum} Tournament #719311965, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (75/150) - 2013/04/21 21:53:56 ET
Table '719311965 2' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: themill519 (2945 in chips)
Seat 2: DrTyore (4345 in chips)
Seat 5: theyavvy (1875 in chips)
Seat 6: wct hemi (6015 in chips)
Seat 7: hubrail (7915 in chips)
Seat 9: RiverYerAss (4905 in chips)
themill519: posts the ante 20
DrTyore: posts the ante 20
theyavvy: posts the ante 20
wct hemi: posts the ante 20
hubrail: posts the ante 20
RiverYerAss: posts the ante 20
DrTyore: posts small blind 75
theyavvy: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrTyore [Ks Kd]
wct hemi: calls 150
hubrail: folds
RiverYerAss: folds
themill519: folds
DrTyore: raises 375 to 525
theyavvy: calls 375
wct hemi: calls 375
*** FLOP *** [2s 2h Jd]
DrTyore: bets 650
theyavvy: raises 680 to 1330 and is all-in
wct hemi: calls 1330
DrTyore: raises 2470 to 3800 and is all-in
wct hemi: calls 2470
*** TURN *** [2s 2h Jd] [4d]
*** RIVER *** [2s 2h Jd 4d] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DrTyore: shows [Ks Kd] (two pair, Kings and Deuces)
wct hemi: shows [Jc 9c] (two pair, Jacks and Deuces)
DrTyore collected 4940 from side pot
theyavvy: shows [Qd Js] (two pair, Jacks and Deuces)
DrTyore collected 5685 from main pot
theyavvy finished the tournament in 6th place
hubrail said, "nh"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10625 Main pot 5685. Side pot 4940. | Rake 0
Board [2s 2h Jd 4d 5c]
Seat 1: themill519 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: DrTyore (small blind) showed [Ks Kd] and won (10625) with two pair, Kings and Deuces
Seat 5: theyavvy (big blind) showed [Qd Js] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Deuces
Seat 6: wct hemi showed [Jc 9c] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Deuces
Seat 7: hubrail folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: RiverYerAss folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Mark

getem76

A10 rocks! I always flop a straight, of course I do not play this hand outside the blinds and first 3 levels of a tournament, not an auto fold but damn near LOL

Card Dead

From the mocker:

Funny.

stpboy

Bravo! He doesn't always play hands brilliantly but when he does, they're Kings.

stp

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