Flop Flush, Can We Continue on the Turn?

JimmyHo

Pretty deepstack 1/2 game where its not uncommon for 5-6 players to see every flop, even $20 pre-flop. In the BB with Q6s and player in early position makes it $20 to go and there are five callers already. You decide to call.

Flop comes 9s5s2s.

You come out betting $60 and get two instant callers. Turn is 10s.

You decide to check and see what kind of action the turn brings. Player A bets $100, and is re-raised to $220 by Player B. Easy fold? What do you put these two players on? You have about $500 behind and Player A has about $800 and Player B has about $200 behind.

Jacen299

One of them has to have the k or A. Did you consider check raising on the flop, maybe all in? With that many seeing the flop someone is going to lead out. Why else are you playing Q6s from BB, its the dream flop for that hand, so get it in then. Leading out for 60 seems like its going to get a caller maybe more once one does. Getting a caller means folding when the turn is another spade. or river spade.

Richard~

Q6s oop for 10 BBs np. Looks like a super easy fold since regardless of what they have I don't think we can viably bet 500 dollars more on the fact that they're BOTH bluffing. There are a few possabilities

- 100 dollar guy holds As, 220 guy is empty
- 100 dollar guy is empty, 220 guy is holding As
- 100 dollar guy is empty, 220 guy is trying to buy the pot
- 100 dollar guy is holding As, 220 guy is trying some bad pot control move with Ks cause he doesn't know where he's at
- 100 dollar guy is holding Ks, 220 guy is holding As
- 100 dollar guy is holding Ks, 220 guy is trying to rep As

In 4 out of 6 scenarios you're fucked, but there's more. Even if you have the best hand and put in 500 bucks, they're gonna fold everything you beat. Even if you coldcall turn you're just praying that they don't have it and will fire a bluff at the river and everytime you're beat you've just put in that last 500 drawing dead since you argubly have to call river if you call turn. My 2 cents, playing suited trash out of position in bloated pots gets you into trouble but as played, I would fold

JimmyHo

Jacen299;341829 wroteOne of them has to have the k or A. Did you consider check raising on the flop, maybe all in? With that many seeing the flop someone is going to lead out. Why else are you playing Q6s from BB, its the dream flop for that hand, so get it in then. Leading out for 60 seems like its going to get a caller maybe more once one does. Getting a caller means folding when the turn is another spade. or river spade.

I like to bet my hand on the flop to not give a potential free card. Guess I could have raised a little more. Hoping an A or K will chase their flush, pushing might make it too expensive for a chaser.

Initial raiser is fairly loose pre-flop but much tighter post. The re-raiser can have any two cards pre but won't raise unless he has something decent post.

MadMax

I would have check raised the flop as well. Guaranteed somebody will come out firing with 5 to the flop. A check raise imo would look mighty strong and I would make it a hefty one to show that you're not messing around. If the guy with the Ace of spades wants to hit his draw he's gonna have to pay. I like to take it down right there. Or second option would be to fold the turn once that fourth spade comes. Third nut in this spot not the greatest.

MadMax

Sorry Jacen299 just realized that I basically said the same thing you did :-)

Jacen299

Richard~;341848 wroteQ6s oop for 10 BBs np. Looks like a super easy fold since regardless of what they have I don't think we can viably bet 500 dollars more on the fact that they're BOTH bluffing. There are a few possabilities

- 100 dollar guy holds As, 220 guy is empty
- 100 dollar guy is empty, 220 guy is holding As
- 100 dollar guy is empty, 220 guy is trying to buy the pot
- 100 dollar guy is holding As, 220 guy is trying some bad pot control move with Ks cause he doesn't know where he's at
- 100 dollar guy is holding Ks, 220 guy is holding As
- 100 dollar guy is holding Ks, 220 guy is trying to rep As

In 4 out of 6 scenarios you're fucked, but there's more. Even if you have the best hand and put in 500 bucks, they're gonna fold everything you beat. Even if you coldcall turn you're just praying that they don't have it and will fire a bluff at the river and everytime you're beat you've just put in that last 500 drawing dead since you argubly have to call river if you call turn. My 2 cents, playing suited trash out of position in bloated pots gets you into trouble but as played, I would fold

What about the possibility off a guy having a set or 2 pr. Or str8 draw? I think those are more likely then empty. Especially set, he wouldn't want guys drawing to flush.

Richard~

Jacen299;341878 wroteWhat about the possibility off a guy having a set or 2 pr. Or str8 draw? I think those are more likely then empty. Especially set, he wouldn't want guys drawing to flush.

On this board having a set and being empty is pretty much the same thing, and there aren't any flushes to draw to anymore. Betting 100 dollars on a set here could occur, but thats basically turning your hand into a bluff

Jacen299

Richard~;341889 wroteOn this board having a set and being empty is pretty much the same thing, and there aren't any flushes to draw to anymore. Betting 100 dollars on a set here could occur, but thats basically turning your hand into a bluff

What is your definition of empty?
I figure anyone holding As or Ks is drawing to a flush, no?
You broke down the possible hands out there, I thought a set is a def possibility.

blackmagicz

Shrug....then fold. Its 1-2nl and no one is making a move without the nut here. Just unlucky.

JimmyHo

blackmagicz;341896 wroteShrug....then fold. Its 1-2nl and no one is making a move without the nut here. Just unlucky.

ok, little more details. I folded, figuring I was behind a bigger flush given the action on the turn. Player A calls the $120 and the river was a blank (didn't pair the board). Action goes check/check.

Jacen299

pokerJAH;341850 wroteI like to bet my hand on the flop to not give a potential free card. Guess I could have raised a little more. Hoping an A or K will chase their flush, pushing might make it too expensive for a chaser.

half pot is an inviatation.

Wouldn't you like a free card instead of folding after donating 60?
I highly doubt it gets checked around for that free card, but if the free card comes and doesn't give another spade, you still have one more street to get chips in.

you said it got checked down, what won? your hand some how would of held up?

JimmyHo

Jacen299;341900 wroteWouldn't you like a free card instead of folding after donating 60?

Its not a free card for me realistically. If a non-spade came on the turn, I am likely betting pot. If someone slow played a better flush, well played.

Jacen299

pokerJAH;341903 wroteIts not a free card for me realistically. If a non-spade came on the turn, I am likely betting pot. If someone slow played a better flush, well played.

You fear the Ks and As drawing to a better flush so in a sense you are looking for a non spade - seeing that free on turn improves your hand.
going to the turn for free also conceals the strength of your hand and I think you are certain to get paid off if turn misses another spade.
upon further review of the hand I think optimal choice is checking looking to reraise all in. If checks around, your hand can improve with a non spade or you can get away cheap if a 4th spade turns.

Why pot size on turn but not on the flop?

JimmyHo

Jacen299;341905 wroteWhy pot size on turn but not on the flop?

$60 into $100 on flop seemed ok. Don't really like the check raise as any As or Ks is checking as well for the free card. No guarantee someone is raising the flop. Granted a $60 bet is not getting them out of the hand. I find suited flops don't get a lot of action.

Jacen299

5 callers plus you equals 120 is how I read it. Either way you have the move to take down 100 pot. If you don't like the check option and prefer betting. I think more then 60 is recommended. Pot+ shows a lot of strength. Re pop may not come in that case. Then you see the turn and cam still get away from hand if the board doesn't start to rainbow.

Richard~

We can't just call out of position with garbage and be scared to play postflop when we smash the flop. if everyone folds this flop it's pretty bad for us in the long run, I think pot would be overdoing it on the flop and I don't mind the lead much at all

blackmagicz

pokerJAH;341912 wrote$60 into $100 on flop seemed ok. Don't really like the check raise as any As or Ks is checking as well for the free card. No guarantee someone is raising the flop. Granted a $60 bet is not getting them out of the hand. I find suited flops don't get a lot of action.

No way with the action pre will someone check back this flop with that much money in the pot. Someone with any nut spade draw or some sort of connection with that flop will be betting.

Limped pot I can see people checking back flops but not in a raised pot.

I personally don't like the 60 dollar bet as your driving out action and any action you keep in will get you into trouble in later street.

JimmyHo

blackmagicz;341957 wroteI personally don't like the 60 dollar bet as your driving out action and any action you keep in will get you into trouble in later street.

So you are in the check raise camp?

blackmagicz

pokerJAH;341959 wroteSo you are in the check raise camp?

Yeah based on the action pre, if it was a limped pot then I see merit in betting out to build a pot as most people will come along