Zithal
Hey all,
Going to be running an Ante-Up tournament. (NLHE with Ante's instead of blinds, as debuted in the WSOP this year)
Wanted to get comments on a proposed structure. Here are my goals..
- I want there to be enough play in the early levels that it's not a huge all in fest by level 3. Unless we bring out red chips, starting at a 25 ante puts 200 chips on the table each hand, which is almost the same amount as level 4 (75-150) in one of my regular tournaments.
- It needs to excelerate quickly after a while. With 5,000 starting chips the game usually ends at the 1,500-3,000 level, so that's what I'm shooting for, for level 14 (5 hours in).
- Each level is 20 minutes, there are usually a couple of 15 minute breaks thrown in.
SCHEDULE A:
1: 25
2: 25
3: 50
4: 50
5: 75
<break, colour out 25 chips>
6: 100
7: 200
8: 300
9: 400
10: 600
11: 800
12: 1200
13: 2000
14: 3000
15: 5000
Thoughts?
Zithal
Quick alternate that likely doesn't play much different, but let's me colour out 100 chips sooner..
Let's call it SCHEDULE B
1: 25
2: 25
3: 50
4: 50
5: 75
<break, colour out 25 chips>
6: 100
7: 200
8: 300
9: 400
10: 600
<break, colour out 100>
11: 1000
12: 1500
13: 2000
14: 3000
15: 5000
DataMn
I would leave in the 25 chips for a while longer to lessen the blow of the jumps.
Moving the blind times to 15 minutes, with smaller jumps would probably get rid of some of the large gaps. (100 to 200, 1200 to 2000). Something like:
25
25
50
50
75
100
150
200
300
400
600
900
1200
1500
2000
3000
4000
5000
6000
This would still be done in around 4 hours.
Just my $0.02
Al
Zithal
I like the 15 minute level idea. We can get in 20 levels in the span of a usual 15 and, as you said, lessen the blow of some of the larger gaps.
moose
First level use a $100 button ante.
BrennerM
If you do a 5,000 starting stack, I predict this will be over well before level 14. The 1500-3000-500 level costs 8500 per orbit for an 8-handed table. The 3000 ante level would cost 24000 per orbit. My recommendation is to slow down the jumps even more, or just use a bigger starting stack (at least double the 5000, if not triple).
DataMn
Yes, but that is at an 8 player table. Once you hit level 12, 13 and 14 it will probably be less than 8 handed, which means less money goes in the middle. In a regular tourney the blinds always go in no matter how many players there are. With an ante only lessening the number of players lessens the amount in the pot too.
At 400/1500/3000 5300 chips go in the pot when it is heads up, which is about the same at the 6000 that would go in at Level 14.
moose
Regardless of the number of players at a table, Mike is correct. It is way more spendy per hand.
DataMn
If there are 2 players left at 400/1500/3000 they put in 5300 (which is where he wants it to be at level 14)
If there are 2 players left at an ante tourney with an ante of 3000 they put in 6000
How is it WAY more spendy??
moose
Because every hand up to reaching heads up will cost more than a traditional tourney. The starting pots will be far larger and larger preflop raises will be needed. Mike is right, it will reach heads up way before this point.
Even if it does, you neglect the fact that the difference of 700 chips is not made up by both players. In a blind structure the small blind must put in an extra 1500 in order to play. In an ante structure folding and saving those chips for a better hand is not an option. Every 10 hands there has been an extra 7000 chips contested and 60000 chips overall. Those chips have been contributed equally by both players. When the chip stacks are unequal this will have a greater effect on the shorter stacked player. Whereas in a blind structure, if a player folds the small blind he can conserve chips, so yes it is way more spendy.
BrennerM
Ignoring the higher levels for now because shorter tables confuses things, just look at the 10th level (I'm using Al's structure and 8-handed). Cost per round would be 400*8 = 3200. In Rob's normal blind structure I believe the 10th level is 400-800-100 which is a min cost of 2000 per round. Normally we still have at least one full table at this point so action will be dramatically increased when people have to pay 3200 per round vs 2000 per round, meaning the tourney will end quite a bit sooner than normal because everyone's "I gotta shove now" point will be earlier.
In fact, most of the first 10 levels are roughly double the cost in the ante tournament except the first 3 which are about quadruple.
I still think starting chip stacks should be 10K, or we need to break out some red/white chips and start with smaller antes. I would prefer just upping the stacks.
DataMn
You cannot compare level vs level, since the normal blind levels are 20 mins, while these blind levels are for 15 min. So, level 10 in my blind levels corresponds to minutes 15 to 20 of level 7 and minutes 1 to 10 of a regular Bristol.
BrennerM
DataMn;336520 wroteYou cannot compare level vs level, since the normal blind levels are 20 mins, while these blind levels are for 15 min. So, level 10 in my blind levels corresponds to minutes 15 to 20 of level 7 and minutes 1 to 10 of a regular Bristol.
Yeah, but doesn't that make it worse rather than better? I was assuming 20 mins for both.
DataMn
Thanks for following the rest of the conversation before commenting.
We already talked about making the blinds 15 minutes to smooth out some of the large jumps that were in the original structure.
BrennerM
OK, I finally broke out the old spreadsheet I created years ago to estimate when a tourney would get to heads-up. I've run 5 scenarios, including a final one that changes up the antes but still gets it done in 4:45. Note that these do NOT include breaks, so add 25 minutes or so to each duration to account for a main break plus colour-up breaks.
I won't claim that this is perfect but it has been remarkably accurate in the past to predict when you get to heads-up. Obviously the guess at players remaining in earlier levels is more hit-and-miss.
Normal Bristol (approx - I probably messed up some later levels)
Level Time SB BB Ante Left Average stack
1 0h 00m 25 25 0 24 5000
2 0h 20m 25 50 0 24 5000
3 0h 40m 50 100 0 24 5000
4 1h 00m 75 150 0 24 5000
5 1h 20m 100 200 0 24 5000
6 1h 40m 100 200 25 23 5217
7 2h 00m 150 300 25 22 5455
8 2h 20m 200 400 50 15 8000
9 2h 40m 300 600 50 12 10000
10 3h 00m 400 800 75 8 15000
11 3h 20m 500 1000 100 6 20000
12 3h 40m 600 1200 100 6 20000
13 4h 00m 800 1600 100 5 24000
14 4h 20m 1000 2000 200 3 40000
15 4h 40m 1200 2400 200 3 40000
16 5h 00m 1500 3000 200 2 60000
Al's antes with 5000 starting stack and 15 min levels
Level Time SB BB Ante Left Average stack
1 0h 00m 0 0 25 24 5000
2 0h 15m 0 0 25 24 5000
3 0h 30m 0 0 50 23 5217
4 0h 45m 0 0 50 22 5455
5 1h 00m 0 0 75 21 5714
6 1h 15m 0 0 100 20 6000
7 1h 30m 0 0 150 14 8571
8 1h 45m 0 0 200 8 15000
9 2h 00m 0 0 300 7 17143
10 2h 15m 0 0 400 6 20000
11 2h 30m 0 0 600 5 24000
12 2h 45m 0 0 900 4 30000
13 3h 00m 0 0 1200 3 40000
14 3h 15m 0 0 1500 3 40000
15 3h 30m 0 0 2000 2 60000
Al's antes with 10000 starting stack and 15 min levels
Level Time SB BB Ante Left Average stack
1 0h 00m 0 0 25 24 10000
2 0h 15m 0 0 25 24 10000
3 0h 30m 0 0 50 24 10000
4 0h 45m 0 0 50 24 10000
5 1h 00m 0 0 75 24 10000
6 1h 15m 0 0 100 23 10435
7 1h 30m 0 0 150 22 10909
8 1h 45m 0 0 200 21 11429
9 2h 00m 0 0 300 14 17143
10 2h 15m 0 0 400 8 30000
11 2h 30m 0 0 600 7 34286
12 2h 45m 0 0 900 5 48000
13 3h 00m 0 0 1200 5 48000
14 3h 15m 0 0 1500 4 60000
15 3h 30m 0 0 2000 3 80000
16 3h 45m 0 0 3000 3 80000
17 4h 00m 0 0 4000 2 120000
Al's antes with 10000 starting stack and 20 min levels
Level Time SB BB Ante Left Average stack
1 0h 00m 0 0 25 24 10000
2 0h 20m 0 0 25 24 10000
3 0h 40m 0 0 50 24 10000
4 1h 00m 0 0 50 24 10000
5 1h 20m 0 0 75 24 10000
6 1h 40m 0 0 100 23 10435
7 2h 00m 0 0 150 22 10909
8 2h 20m 0 0 200 21 11429
9 2h 40m 0 0 300 14 17143
10 3h 00m 0 0 400 8 30000
11 3h 20m 0 0 600 7 34286
12 3h 40m 0 0 900 5 48000
13 4h 00m 0 0 1200 5 48000
14 4h 20m 0 0 1500 4 60000
15 4h 40m 0 0 2000 3 80000
16 5h 00m 0 0 3000 3 80000
17 5h 20m 0 0 4000 2 120000
Alternate proposal - 10000 starting and 15 minute levels, with a 250 level plus slightly gentler higher levels
Level Time SB BB Ante Left Average stack
1 0h 00m 0 0 25 24 10000
2 0h 15m 0 0 25 24 10000
3 0h 30m 0 0 50 24 10000
4 0h 45m 0 0 50 24 10000
5 1h 00m 0 0 75 24 10000
6 1h 15m 0 0 100 23 10435
7 1h 30m 0 0 150 22 10909
8 1h 45m 0 0 200 21 11429
9 2h 00m 0 0 250 15 16000
10 2h 15m 0 0 300 14 17143
11 2h 30m 0 0 400 8 30000
12 2h 45m 0 0 500 7 34286
13 3h 00m 0 0 600 6 40000
14 3h 15m 0 0 800 6 40000
15 3h 30m 0 0 1000 5 48000
16 3h 45m 0 0 1200 5 48000
17 4h 00m 0 0 1500 4 60000
18 4h 15m 0 0 2000 3 80000
19 4h 30m 0 0 3000 3 80000
20 4h 45m 0 0 4000 2 120000
Zithal
Definitely the hard part is estimating what will happen, because the number of players at a table has a huge effect on the amount of chips in the middle of the table each orbit, which effects any bring in bet, which effects further bet sizes.
I'm in total agreement that my original structure is far too fast. (And, I think that's what they found at the WSOP.. it was pretty crazy). The original plan was to air on the side of caution as I'd rather a tournament go 3 hours, than 8. :)
I'm seriously looking at Mike's "alternate proposal", and am liking it the more I think about each level.
Zithal
(Also, thanks a ton for the discussion and analysis from everyone!)
BrennerM
You could probably take out the 1200 level in my alternate and save 15 minutes without much detriment. Plus it would let you colour out the black chips a bit earlier.
BrennerM
For posterity, I ran the actual schedule through my spreadsheet with 18 starting players instead of 24 (I think there were about 18 last night).
The prediction is very close to the actual results last night:
- a lot of players were lost between the 250-300-400 levels
- we got down to 4 players around the 1000 level and 3 players around the 1500 level (I was eliminated 4th near the end of the 1200 level)
I expect it got to heads up a bit earlier than the 3000 level but I could see it going that far if the chip stacks were fairly balanced.
Level Time SB BB Ante Left Average stack
1 0h 00m 0 0 25 18 10000
2 0h 15m 0 0 25 18 10000
3 0h 30m 0 0 50 18 10000
4 0h 45m 0 0 50 18 10000
5 1h 00m 0 0 75 18 10000
6 1h 15m 0 0 100 18 10000
7 1h 30m 0 0 150 17 10588
8 1h 45m 0 0 200 15 12000
9 2h 00m 0 0 250 13 13846
10 2h 15m 0 0 300 8 22500
11 2h 30m 0 0 400 7 25714
12 2h 45m 0 0 500 6 30000
13 3h 00m 0 0 600 6 30000
14 3h 15m 0 0 800 5 36000
15 3h 30m 0 0 1000 4 45000
16 3h 45m 0 0 1200 4 45000
17 4h 00m 0 0 1500 3 60000
18 4h 15m 0 0 2000 3 60000
19 4h 30m 0 0 3000 2 90000
Zithal
It ended at the 1,500 level (though I think they accidentally jumped to 2,000) At that point, with 170,000 chips in play there were 50-60BB, so if it wasn't for who the final two were, it could have gone one for another couple hours.
Of course, I ended the tournment with antes, going 4k, 6k, 10k (cap), so that would have ended it too. :)
All in all, the schedule was a success. Great job! :)