Ahmadinejad speech at Columbia University

[deleted]

Richard~;326191 wroteIsn't this just a horribly unpragmatic way of looking at it? I studied plenty of theory of knowledgy at school, a topic revolving almost entirely around the question "how do we know this?"

Is this high school or university...because we don't have such a thing in high school. By college I think its kinda too late.

Applying two simple theories from that topic (occam's razor and pragmatism)

Hold on...before you use these, what theories did you use to decide these ones are born from unconditioned backgrounds before you had these theories to help you decide.

you chose to believe the these or hypothesis that involve the fewest conclusions and also the thesis that isn't completely useless for the way you view the world.

This doesn't suggest these theories always pick the truth, and its also is subject to tainted views on whats useful.

ex, why would I argue that we're not living in the matrix? it's not impossible, but the theory of all of us living in a dreamworld wouldn't follow my occam razor principle but rather assume too much and second, believing that will have no pracical value in my life at all

I thought this was part of the philosophical point of the matrix.

If something really bugs you go do your own digging and come back with something solid, doubt for the sake of doubt isn't helpful to anyone, just my quick two cents before rushing to work

I did the digging, it makes sense to me now.

I'm glad you commented your view is important because you are from a different nationality (right???).

But I also wanted to say I didn't know what anarchy was before and you were right and now I'm ready to talk about it.

Cerberus

No Darb, I'm saying that you're full of crap intellectually. You seem to think that you're somehow more open minded than everyone, yet you will not look at any ideas other than your own.

Also, you call our educational system shitty, both schools and parents. Neither my school nor my parents were shitty teachers. Try to understand that please.

[deleted]

Cerberus;326195 wroteNo Darb, I'm saying that you're full of crap intellectually. You seem to think that you're somehow more open minded than everyone, yet you will not look at any ideas other than your own.

You believe the world is fully of different 'ideas', I believe there are 2 types of ideas conditioned partial ones....and totalistic unconditioned ones.

yet you will not look at any ideas other than your own.

Correct I only consider unconditioned ideas.

You however won't accept the idea that this concept exists. You are accusing me of what you are doing.

You want me to accept conditioned ideas and I cannot.

Also, you call our educational system shitty, both schools and parents. Neither my school nor my parents were shitty teachers. Try to understand that please.

Maybe they were good, but something we can say for sure: you were taught to think they were. You have no way of of evaluating such a thing without using the stuff they taught you in the first place. Hard to understand I know.

Cerberus

darbday;326196 wroteYou believe the world is fully of different 'ideas', I believe there are 2 types of ideas conditioned partial ones....and totalistic unconditioned ones.

Correct I only consider unconditioned ideas.

You however won't accept the idea that this concept exists. You are accusing me of what you are doing.

You want me to accept conditioned ideas and I cannot.

Maybe they were good, but something we can say for sure: you were taught to think they were. You have no way of of evaluating such a thing without using the stuff they taught you in the first place. Hard to understand I know.

Ok, let's try this again. You state that you are only able to accept unconditioned ideas. What makes you the expert on unconditioned ideas? How can you state, unequivically, that your ideas are the unconditioned ones and mine are the conditioned ones? Do you not see the paradox of your whole thought process?

[deleted]

This was a more reasonable paragraph from you I think...

Cerberus;326197 wroteOk, let's try this again. You state that you are only able to accept unconditioned ideas. What makes you the expert on unconditioned ideas?

I am not the 'expert' if anyone is...its Jiddhu Krishnamurti. This is why he was sought after by people such as quantum physicists. Which was relativity new at the time (relatively pun ha).

Cerberus;326197 wrote How can you state, unequivically, that your ideas are the unconditioned ones and mine are the conditioned ones?

Later we will suggest that there are no unconditioned ideas, but you are conditioned to believe that is not true.

Cerberus;326197 wrote Do you not see the paradox of your whole thought process?

Yes I see it. Now you understand what Jiddhu taught, and we can solve the paradox, but not in this thread.....you have no issue with me..we can now have a discussion.

I'm going to explain to you how I believe we can be free of our conditioning, just like Bruce lee taught, that Jiddhu taught, that it was the basis of 'religion' before the big whole in our history, shortly before the Jews were slaves under the Egyptians (so the Jewish bible story goes).

I know you somewhat understand the view im suggesting because you understand the paradox. But we aren't there yet, not in this thread.

DrTyore

Milo;326103 wroteLarry Flynt should offer a mirrion dollars for gay pix of Ahmadenijad . . . you KNOW they're out there.

Not to really try and troll here, but... on a relation to whatever darbday said to get a ban, is this just as, less than, or worse.. because I have to admit I found it pretty bad.

Also, darbday is winning this thread simply by its continuation - you all know that right? It's like arguing with a zealot, you won't win.

Mark

kwsteve

Winning?

[deleted]

DrTyore;326199 wroteNot to really try and troll here, but... on a relation to whatever darbday said to get a ban, is this just as, less than, or worse.. because I have to admit I found it pretty bad.

This is what I seriously said:

I said Jews run the world, they run an illegal state of Israel, the US military is their puppet. They own the us media and entertainment section, and their government. And they run the world banks.

I think thats it....then I got called a racist, and warned by comp, when I asked for clarification I was already banned.

I wasn't even referring to their race, I don't care about race. But I do take issues with Judaism. But really its all religions right?

And tbh, I don't really think its as simple as 'The Jews' run the world, but I got banned before I could clear that up.

The truth is the world is run by ignorance something every single one of us is responsible for....not just THEM.

Also, darbday is winning this thread simply by its continuation - you all know that right? It's like arguing with a zealot, you won't win.

Mark

Thx for the extra points too! Don't worry we're almost onto the next thread then we can start the wrap up!!!

[deleted]

kwsteve;326200 wroteWinning?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHJAJAJA!!!!!

Richard~

here's a story about solving problems your own way:

Once upon a time 3 proffesionals in their field was traveling cross country to speak at this big event. Night falls and they pull over and check into this cheap motel along the road after which all 3 immidiatly fall asleep.

As chance would have it, in the middle of the night, a garbage bin catches fire. Luckily the chemist happens to be up to pee at that time and rushes in. He says to himself "hmm, I could do one of three things here, I can take away the fuel, I can take away the heat or I can limit the supply of oxygen to the fire", he then procceeds to toss a pan full of water at the fire, all is well and he goes back to sleep

Unfortunately tho, a spark remained and sure enough, 2 hours later the bin was burning again. The philosopher wakes up and takes on the challenge. "hmm, are we sure this is really fire? sure it looks like fire, smells like fire and feels like fire but how can one really be sure it's fire. What conditions does the phenomena have to satisfy to be truly counted as "fire"..."

Meanwhile, the engineer wakes up, grunts something, picks up the flaming bin, tosses it out the window, closes the window and goes back to sleep

[deleted]

Richard~;326203 wrotehere's a story about solving problems your own way:

Once upon a time 3 proffesionals in their field was traveling cross country to speak at this big event. Night falls and they pull over and check into this cheap motel along the road after which all 3 immidiatly fall asleep.

As chance would have it, in the middle of the night, a garbage bin catches fire. Luckily the chemist happens to be up to pee at that time and rushes in. He says to himself "hmm, I could do one of three things here, I can take away the fuel, I can take away the heat or I can limit the supply of oxygen to the fire", he then procceeds to toss a pan full of water at the fire, all is well and he goes back to sleep

Unfortunately tho, a spark remained and sure enough, 2 hours later the bin was burning again. The philosopher wakes up and takes on the challenge. "hmm, are we sure this is really fire? sure it looks like fire, smells like fire and feels like fire but how can one really be sure it's fire. What conditions does the phenomena have to satisfy to be truly counted as "fire"..."

Meanwhile, the engineer wakes up, grunts something, picks up the flaming bin, tosses it out the window, closes the window and goes back to sleep

Wait a mintue....which one are you suggesting is me?^-^:p:D

Anyways yes this is the same as the debate on martial arts style. And there is the observation that each a philosopher, an engineer, and a chemist will hear this story differently and pull slightly different conclusions away from it based on their own conditioning.

Milo

darbday;326131 wroteThere is no way you can say its the first thing I noticed...but it was definitely on my mind since its the topic of this thread.

Yes you are calling me prejudice. You are trying to suggest I'm anti Jew....but I just like objective truth. I don't think SNL is so objective. Neither are the media items we choose to represent our thinking patterns.

Like the Iranian president says, I'm not against Jewish people, I just think there should be more objective study done on the holocaust. That doesn't make me prejudiced or racist.

Except that he IS against the Jewish people . . . the Jewish State . . . you choose to accept one speech at Columbia over countless statements to the contrary on other occasions . . . occasions when he is much less "guarded" in his comments. You have written about looking at overviews, so why the exception for Mahmoud? His overview is an anti-Isreal/anti-Jewish one.

Richard~

my grandmother had a fairly close relative who fell victim during the holocause. Denying that it happened is calling my grandmother a liar :< and that's not very cool

compuease

Richard~;326207 wrotemy grandmother had a fairly close relative who fell victim during the holocause. Denying that it happened is calling my grandmother a liar :< and that's not very cool

He's not exactly saying it didn't happen, which of course is a load of bullcrap. He's saying it should be investigated, which is not quite the same but it is a fine line.. I went back through his posts as well as the closed thread which you all assumed was deleted and while he didn't directly say the Holocaust didn't happen, his PM to me when I asked him to stop was why he got the 48 hr ban, not for what he posted publicly although it was close...

In short Darb, you are like the kid who runs around from demonstration to demonstration inciting others to riot. You have some obvious debating skills, your logic has some huge holes in it, but you do have some skills and I would say you are likely of above average intelligence. Why not use it for good?

Or are you going to continue to be the prototypical misguided youth?

Richard~

I have no clue what has happened in previous threads ^^' I barely knew he got tempbanned, I didn't think he was denying the holocaust but rather that my grandmother would have a little something to say to people who does

[deleted]

Milo;326205 wroteExcept that he IS against the Jewish people . . . the Jewish State . . .

you choose to accept one speech at Columbia over countless statements to the contrary on other occasions . . . occasions when he is much less "guarded" in his comments. You have written about looking at overviews, so why the exception for Mahmoud?

Not sure what you meant here, we are taking an overview of the world's history, but I a have a slight agenda with that. Maybe you think I sliced the Mahmoud's belief in half and only chose the good non radical ones...

His overview is an anti-Isreal/anti-Jewish one.

Much of the world is anti Israel. It is a religious state that is racist towards the rest of the planet. Not the Jews you see, but the people that believe the Jewish race has god given rights to Israel...thats racist. The bible is racist. Calling people racist when they disagree with your beliefs is racist.

You would know Mahmoud better than me, but I imagine he doesn't hate the Jewish race. I imagine he 'hates' the Jewish faith and the beliefs associated with it. But maybe you know differently, my point wasn't to defend or justify Iran or their presidents' views. Just to show we can't just dismiss him as insane (or like the video HipHop showed). Our 'enemies' are real people, they have fallen into the same conditioning trap the we have. Thats not different than us, its the same.

And of course there is the gay thing which you must know I totally disagree with him obviously. "We don't have those people". Shows a certain (blatant) lack of intelligence. But our leaders show the same stupidity, some is faked ignorance, some is genuine lack of intelligence. Notice in both our countries (and the US) we allow ourselves to be governed be ignorant and unintelligent peoples.

But we have to remember we change these things by integrating the populations, to dispel ignorance, not by shying away and ostracizing 'enemies'. War doesn't fix these things either, talks like this speech do.....however it help when the introduction is so "We are right, how can you explain that?"

[deleted]

Richard~;326207 wrotemy grandmother had a fairly close relative who fell victim during the holocause. Denying that it happened is calling my grandmother a liar :< and that's not very cool

This is what I get from many of my peers. Everyone indirectly know someone who was effected by the holocaust. For some it didn't affect their families per say, but they knew friends who had a link.

But everyone has an emotional response to it. Everyone I know has an emotional response to Hitler, the swastika, the Holocaust, yet few of them actually have any idea what it was really all about.

And denying or disagreeing with the historical accounts of the holocaust isn't doing a disservice to the victims. Especially if new more accurate info was discovered, even at a 'conspiracy' level, these people would be better laid to rest.

The isn't about conspiracy really but 9/11 is the same example. Ignorant people say why would you dig up old wounds those brave courageous people died at the hands of evil terrorists. Maybe its not a inside job, but the victims deserve as much inquiry as we do.

[deleted]

compuease;326209 wroteHe's not exactly saying it didn't happen, which of course is a load of bullcrap. He's saying it should be investigated, which is not quite the same but it is a fine line.. I went back through his posts as well as the closed thread which you all assumed was deleted and while he didn't directly say the Holocaust didn't happen, his PM to me when I asked him to stop was why he got the 48 hr ban, not for what he posted publicly although it was close...

Thx this is closer to sanity

In short Darb, you are like the kid who runs around from demonstration to demonstration inciting others to riot. You have some obvious debating skills, your logic has some huge holes in it, but you do have some skills and I would say you are likely of above average intelligence. Why not use it for good?

Maybe get into politics and win some wars!?

Or are you going to continue to be the prototypical misguided youth?

You generation was taught misguided, was being anti chuch, anti war, anti government, anti democracy, anti public school. etc.

This definition of misguided is going to flip. ^-^

Richard~

darbday;326223 wroteThis is what I get from many of my peers. Everyone indirectly know someone who was effected by the holocaust. For some it didn't affect their families per say, but they knew friends who had a link.

But everyone has an emotional response to it. Everyone I know has an emotional response to Hitler, the swastika, the Holocaust, yet few of them actually have any idea what it was really all about.

And denying or disagreeing with the historical accounts of the holocaust isn't doing a disservice to the victims. Especially if new more accurate info was discovered, even at a 'conspiracy' level, these people would be better laid to rest.

The isn't about conspiracy really but 9/11 is the same example. Ignorant people say why would you dig up old wounds those brave courageous people died at the hands of evil terrorists. Maybe its not a inside job, but the victims deserve as much inquiry as we do.

Now you're just pulling a red herring on me and putting words and arguments in my mouth. Everyone doesn't have an emotional response to the holocaust, no one said new facts would do a disservice to victims, they're dead, they don't give a shit. then you go off on some random 9/11 tangent, go find some facts or justification for your beliefs, until then you're just doubtful for the sake of being doubtful which again, isn't very pragmatic

[deleted]

Richard~;326226 wroteNow you're just pulling a red herring on me and putting words and arguments in my mouth. Everyone doesn't have an emotional response to the holocaust, no one said new facts would do a disservice to victims, they're dead, they don't give a shit. then you go off on some random 9/11 tangent, go find some facts or justification for your beliefs, until then you're just doubtful for the sake of being doubtful which again, isn't very pragmatic

I didn't mean to put words into your mouth just connected you in with a greater population as a segue to talk about them. As for 9/11 no I don't want to go off on that tangent.

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