Folded KK. Bad fold?

holychow

Loose live (the Cave) cash game with $0.50-$1.00 blinds.

I'm on the button with a full table of ten players.

Very loose and aggressive player limps UTG and two players limp in from late position. I look down at cowboys and pump it to $10 (not a large raise at the table). Blinds fold, UTG calls and a late position player calls.

Flop: 985 rainbow

It gets checked to me and I bet $30. UTG asks how much I have back and I show my stack. I had about $120 and he had me covered. UTG flat calls and the other player folds.

His range is pretty wide since I've seen him show down a huge range of hands in other pots. I figure he's got 9 with a kicker. If it's an 8 then I'm drawing nearly dead and if it's 97 or 9T he's got huge outs against me.

Turn: 6

He says, "I'll be the same as before," and I say, "You didn't bet last time. I did." He fires $30 and I go into the tank. I didn't think he slow played anything on the flop because he check-raised many other pots earlier. If he had 97 then he just gutshotted and still had a live draw otherwise.

It was either shove or fold but I couldn't make up my mind, so I decided to muck. He showed a nine before mucking his hand.

I've been thinking about this hand for a while and watched him play other pots and I'm now pretty sure I folded the best hand. He likely didn't flop a set because he was playing all his pairs, connected cards and suited cards hard preflop (and raising with most of his range). I'm thinking he had a nine with a shit kicker (he showed down several hands like 93s) and likely not anything like 9T or 9J because he would have likely raised those under the gun.

What do you guys think?

jdAA88

how does he view your play, does he think you're nitty? I prob call turn re-evaluate river

[deleted]

holychow;309336 wroteVery loose and aggressive player limps UTG

So many posts on the forum say this, very loose and aggressive players don't really limp. You were there so you would know best but its kind of a mind blowing statement imo.

holychow;309336 wrote If it's an 8 then I'm drawing nearly dead

Although you'd be a 3 to 1 dog I don't consider it anywhere near dead.

holychow;309336 wrote I've been thinking about this hand for a while and watched him play other pots and I'm now pretty sure I folded the best hand. He likely didn't flop a set because he was playing all his pairs, connected cards and suited cards hard preflop (and raising with most of his range). I'm thinking he had a nine with a shit kicker (he showed down several hands like 93s) and likely not anything like 9T or 9J because he would have likely raised those under the gun.

What do you guys think?

I think its fine to feel that he raises pairs and monsters rather than limp them, but I think you have to still consider that he might sometimes change gears and trap with them, I think most people are capable of that.

holychow;309336 wrote His range is pretty wide since I've seen him show down a huge range of hands in other pots. I figure he's got 9 with a kicker. If it's an 8 then I'm drawing nearly dead

This is the key I think and a simple mistake many players make. I learned it from playing really lag at certain times, and having playback incorrecty. If someone is loose aggressive then the secret to taking their chips is simple.....get aces, close you eyes and call....don't look at the board.

If he show up with the nuts then you have to ask yourself if your initial read was maybe wrong.....but folding aces for a loose aggressive player is the opposite of what to do imo.

for example vs a really lag player I might call 3 streets with a2o, only ace high.....certainly not folding a made hand.

I liked your analysis though

Edit: ya to be concise take kk and don't analyze anything just check call vs a lagtard.-----------------------------------------------------------------------

holychow;309355 wrote In one hand, he raised to $6 with KQos and got re-raised to $18 and he re-raised $30 more and the re-raiser when all-in for $150 more and he flashed his hand and said, "I can't see how I can fold here" and called. He sucked out on a pair of tens.

I realize that this is preflop so it's slightly different but this information def. shows an ability to bet/call off his stack with air. And I'm not saying folding is bad even but I'm just stuck on the fact that we just need to take any hand we can find and get it in vs. this opponent...having kings is just a bonus....

I think proper poker strategy is to basically ignore hand reading and ranging and just get it in...barring a strong read that I might not even take the time to look for

holychow

He probably thought I was a nit. I was playing pretty tight (mostly because I wasn't getting any hands) and we had no prior history.

I should have called the turn. It was a pretty small bet from him, which I initially took as him bluffing or having a strong hand. My later evaluation leans towards the former.

holychow

@darbday I think I over-analyzed his play. The bet on the turn caught me slightly off guard and expected him to over-bet or check. It didn't make much sense to me. That's probably why I should have figured I was still ahead.

Live and learn.

holychow

@darbday And that was the only hand I remember him limping. He was open betting when first into the pot or even re-raising into re-raises.

In one hand, he raised to $6 with KQos and got re-raised to $18 and he re-raised $30 more and the re-raiser when all-in for $150 more and he flashed his hand and said, "I can't see how I can fold here" and called. He sucked out on a pair of tens.

GTA Poker

He isn't lag...come play with me sometime to help define your terms

JimmyHo

holychow;309336 wroteHe says, "I'll bet the same as before,"

When players start talking a lot, good chance you are behind (likely facing two pair +). Me, I hate money, so I likely push on the turn. Not really deep enough to re-raise at this point. Don't like the call as you don't get any further information and he is likely coming out betting on the river anyways.

Push or fold, really depends on how this guy has played his previous hands. If you feel you are behind, fold the overpair and move on. Really not a great turn with an overpair.

holychow

@pokerJAH Agreed.

I'm waiting to play him again. :D

HammerDad

Pushing here is horrible as all worse will fold and all better will call.

Calling here is also fairly bad as we will likely have to call a river bet unless the river is a horrible card (j 10 9 are pretty easy folds). Calling also creates a pot of over $130 so will have less than a PSB behind.

107 has us drawing dead. 7X hands we are drawing to a chop. 98, 86 and 65 have us drawing thin. And 66 88 99 and 55 all have us drawing to 2 outs.

Unless villain is capable of betting random air here, hands we are beating are 9X, 8X and J10. (I am discounting most 6X hands).

The only reason I would call here is due to the small turn bet. It is either a) a blocker bet for a draw or 9X hands as villain doesn't want to call another large bet to try and catch their draw or b) to induce spazz.

Call and re-evaluate river or fold and find a better spot are both fine. Personally I fold as the range of hands villain has here to donk on the turn are ahead of our 1 pair often enough. If we call the turn, we are also calling most safe rivers depending on villains bet size.

I make note that villain will call fairly light pre and adjust my raises accordingly.

JimmyHo

HammerDad;309459 wroteThe only reason I would call here is due to the small turn bet.

Don't like the call here. You then have $90 behind and whatever river card comes, this guy is likely betting. If the river is a blank, are you going to call a $60ish bet, leaving you $30 behind? If so, you are better off folding on the turn or just push and pray.

holychow

The amount of the bet did get the gears turning. Bets like that from an aggressive or inexperienced player could mean many things. It could have been a blocking bet or a value bet.

If I would have stayed in the hand, I would have shoved the turn. That way there would have been no decision to make on the river because he surely would have bet again.

ReeferCash

*A blocking bet is a value-bet. It's a push or fold spot, and I really think you made a good fold. Calling gets you to no good. Next time remember if there was a flush draw on the flop and came out on the turn; prob he's going to donk bet his straight on the turn like he did.

But remember if you push on the turn, IT IS for value, let's say you think you're +50% of the time ahead you can,t just call.

I do agree it's a dangerous and ugly turn for KK but giving his turn bet: do you think he's able to value-blocker bet 9-X hands (not 2 pairs) against your range ? If yes what percentage of his total range?

Villain's range is hits 2 pairs or straight so many times after the c/c on the flop so I'm pretty sure it would be a fold most of the time.