Blinds are about to go up...

Richard~

ofc if you're gonna write that off I can't begin to fathom why you created this thread hoping to find some other guy who had played 20k of these to talk to

[deleted]

Richard~;300255 wroteofc if you're gonna write that off I can't begin to fathom why you created this thread hoping to find some other guy who had played 20k of these to talk to

Listen to me being clear-THIS THREAD WAS NOT CREATED TO DISCUSS RANGES.

Poker forums work like this poster gives assumptions.....players use the assumptions to give answers...

This thread was created to discuss what happens when the blinds go up and our chips are in the air....and to discuss why i think its important to slightly over 3bet shove rather than grossly undershoot it.....

if you want to continue to argue about something thats off topic please don't in this thread.

Richard~

there's no need to defend yourself, I was already out to get my own sample, I already told you I had no further intrest in this thread, chill

[deleted]

Richard~;300259 wrote I already told you I had no further intrest in this thread, chill

thats unfortunate...because now that we've gotten past 10pages of arguing whether or not my premise is true....we've now gotten to my topic of discussion that im curious to hear everyone's opinion on...

with a very breakeven situation....what happens when the blinds will go up and our chips are in mid air...

and with a very breakeven situation and the blinds gong up is it better to 3bet shove a hand that is possibly -ev knowing that we are shoving a more profitable range than the rest of the field that shoves uber tight.

Because there are tons of spots where people never shove a wider 3bet range...I think that 90% of players at least don't really adjust 3bet ranges at all in 180 mans

these are the reasons i created this....and im curious about these two things

betrthanphil

yawnnn.....for some reason I love a fold here ???

Hellmuth's Mole

betrthanphil;300269 wroteyawnnn.....for some reason I love a fold here ???

If for no other reason than 10 pages of debate would make my head hurt.

Darb, why not just make it a standard play to shove atc soon after hitting the money on a MP 9-14 BB minraiser and see what your ROI line looks like after the next 5k hands?

[deleted]

Hellmuth's Mole;300270 wroteDarb, why not just make it a standard play to shove atc soon after hitting the money on a MP 9-14 BB minraiser and see what your ROI line looks like after the next 5k hands?

how about I shove when I think a shove is correct...and then you shove when you think shoving is correct...and me and you will compare roi's

keeping in mind you need at least a 5k sample size and the fact that my roi is with 24 tabling....

betrthanphil

why dont we keep to the thread and say you shove in this exact spot everytime. I dont see it being +ev

[deleted]

betrthanphil;300269 wroteyawnnn.....for some reason I love a fold here ???

but if you read the last few pages i think you would be flaming me for thinking that shoving 42o can be better than folding kto in a situation like this.

thats what i want to know.....but you have to understand how I came up with that...

betrthanphil

i can see the logic behind that but I dont think its true. All the pairs that call you, the occasional q10s or j10s that will call you even qjs. making K10 the better hand IMO.

[deleted]

betrthanphil;300274 wrotei can see the logic behind that but I dont think its true. All the pairs that call you, the occasional q10s or j10s that will call you even qjs. making K10 the better hand IMO.

but its a worse range

.....because you aren't shoving 30% of value hands you should be....where as if i overshoot it...im taking -ev hits...but im hitting every single value hand.....and every value hand minus some -ev hits...is still better than folding anything less than kto....(in spots like this if my parameters were true)

and we get pair on our 'ranges' not our hands

Hellmuth's Mole

darbday;300271 wrotehow about I shove when I think a shove is correct...and then you shove when you think shoving is correct...and me and you will compare roi's

keeping in mind you need at least a 5k sample size and the fact that my roi is with 24 tabling....

But you are the one saying fish are minr/folding here always. So should it be a shove iyo always? Or are you just micro-imagining a solid spot here for 100+ posts.

EDIT: Oh and 5k hands would probably take me a couple months......so you're right. /thread

[deleted]

Hellmuth's Mole;300276 wroteBut you are the one saying fish are minr/folding here always. So should it be a shove iyo always? Or are you just micro-imagining a solid spot here for 100+ posts.

this isn't about this...its not the arguement...the argument is...i can make a mistakes by shoving too wide and still pull a higher roi than you shoving to tight....

meaning i can make more money sometimes in spots like this (if my theory is correct)...by shoving a -ev hand like 42o knowing its wrong...than you do folding a hand like k9o

Hellmuth's Mole;300276 wroteEDIT: Oh and 5k hands would probably take me a couple months......so you're right. /thread

hey im sorry thats a stipulation be we both know anything under that is just variance....i mean maybe 2-3k tourney...but its true and fair (thread\)

Richard~

darbday;300277 wrotethis isn't about this...its not the arguement...the argument is...i can make a mistakes by shoving too wide and still pull a higher roi than you shoving to tight....

now you're stating the obvious, both shoving too wide and too tight are mistakes

Edit: Although you still need fold equity on your shove else you're the one fucking up royally

betrthanphil

ok well explain what hands are we happier with 42os that we dont like with K10 and visversa

Hellmuth's Mole

darbday;300277 wrote
meaning i can make more money sometimes in spots like this (if my theory is correct)...by shoving a -ev hand like 42o knowing its wrong...than you do folding a hand like k9o

(thread\)

LOL.

Which by definition means.....

I can make more money sometimes in spots like this (if my theory is correct)...by folding a hand like k9o not knowing its right...than you do
shoving a -ev hand like 42o.

[deleted]

Richard~;300279 wrotenow you're stating the obvious, both shoving too wide and too tight are mistakes

Richard if you start with the assumption im an idiot...your always going to think im wrong and im always going to come across as annoying or however you think.

no im saying i can shove a hand i know is wrong and i know its a mistake to shove....and still have it boost my roi higher than anyone else in the field for certain spots....

[deleted]

Hellmuth's Mole;300281 wroteLOL.

Which by definition means.....

I can make more money sometimes in spots like this (if my theory is correct)...by folding a hand like k9o not knowing its right...than you do
shoving a -ev hand like 42o.

you still think i am arguing that 42o is a shove....and your nit picking try to find something wrong with everything i say...im not trying to fight you...please don't fight me....

im showing something that is a great theoretical question...hoping vekked or someone who understands the math with ranges, roi, and gbucks, can answer my question.........you have completely missed my point and my question....you sir....not richard...but you....will have to read this thread over and over to even come close to understanding what im getting at....and even then you won't know ever how it applies to your game....

this thread is beyond your understanding....so please stop

betrthanphil

them be fighting words :P

(puts popcorn in the microwave :D)

[deleted]

betrthanphil;300288 wrotethem be fighting words :P

(puts popcorn in the microwave :D)

>:D

so in a hypo spot....

folding k9o is 0 ev

shoving 42o is fairly -ev

but shoving 42o is by far the better play even though its totally -ev

but most people will get stuck on 42o being -ev and they will fold it...

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