Richard~
as I said I factor in my own shoves into my opinion as well. Not so long ago I was paying my way through university playing low limit tournaments and one of the few things I could always count on was a lot of FE for my short stacks. might be different on stars but if you try this on betsson you're throwing money away
How long has it been since you actually cared about your $5 FO tourney til you got deep? Is your low limit experience really vast enough to say that your opponent will not fold too often for this to be MORE profitable than raising it slightly bigger than you normally would to induce a call? Also, does this mean you won't shove your last 11 BB's in with 910s vs a limper cause you feel like you too often get action? you can't have it both ways
betrthanphil
i would fold 910s against a limper with 11bb lol id be insane not too. and I have tonnes of HH from low limits if you want me to get them. I stake a low limit player and talk to a lot of low limit players through skype. one that I am talking to right now and confirms that you get way tooo much action which is why its harder to win to low mtts cause there is nearly 0 FE. I watch him daily. Gets snapped by k6os.
Ive made my points in this thread dont really have to defend it further. Do what you want really has no effect on me.
Richard~
well I've been making money shoving 910s with less than 11BB's too. And that's not an assumption
betrthanphil
against a limper? Id love to see the HH for this.
shoving 910s into a limper is not like horrible. but if anything it maybe a very small edge at best.
but I dont think it would be.
Richard~
I don't really have any examples of that that I can think of but I might be able to fine one where I reship 11,5 BB's with Q10o from the BB on a finaltable bubble and get a fold
10BB's have plenty of FE at low stakes
Edit: I can also show you how I won a $10 super turbo omaha tourney on back to back days cause they kept folding to my 4BB any four card shoves
betrthanphil
Im not saying 10bbs dont have FE. but if your gonna say youve been making money shoving 910s with 11bb against a limper you need to back that up. anyone can just say that lol
Richard~
I'm just suprised you were suprised I was shoving light in that kind of situation lol. To me that's always been a standard exploitative move vs weak players all the way up to higher middle stakes tournaments, especially the $100 FO's on betsson ^^'
betrthanphil
no one limps in the higher games so that really isnt an issue lol
betrthanphil
***** Hand History for Game 67264049126 ***** (Poker Stars)
Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, September 09, 03:34:58 ET 2011
Table 437010515 182 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Seat 1: parlour11 ( $8980.00 USD )
Seat 2: candy1203 ( $2720.00 USD )
Seat 3: hanstimm ( $4400.00 USD )
Seat 4: JeanGrae ( $5900.00 USD )
Seat 5: xenool ( $4145.00 USD )
Seat 6: Com. Tomson ( $5440.00 USD )
Seat 7: IGMathbov ( $4125.00 USD )
Seat 8: Falar K.O. ( $9375.00 USD )
Seat 9: 2bttreb ( $5025.00 USD )
xenool posts small blind [$100.00 USD].
Com. Tomson posts big blind [$200.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to candy1203 [ Jc Kh ]
IGMathbov folds
Falar K.O. folds
2bttreb folds
parlour11 folds
candy1203 raises [$2720.00 USD]
hanstimm folds
JeanGrae raises [$5240.00 USD]
xenool folds
Com. Tomson folds
JeanGrae wins $2520.00 USD
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, 9d, 5s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
candy1203 shows [Jc, Kh ]
JeanGrae shows [7c, 6c ]
candy1203 wins $5740.00 USD from main pot
Richard~
obviously you've never played the 100s on ongame ^^'
And showing a few hands will show nothing. Unless you can show a decent sample of shoving 14-20 BB's (especially over limps) to show the calls and the folds there's no way either of us can deduce which line is optimal from a hand or two...or 10
we'd also need to compare said sample to a similar sample achieved from raising the limps with the intention of betcalling every flop, estimate the cEV for that line factoring in both the times he folds pre, folds flop, gets it in on flop and loses and gets it in on flop and wins.
Then you would have to standardize all the cEV's to BB's or something, compare the two sets of data and run a statistic analysis to show with a 95% confidence level or so that your average cEV is greater than that of not shoving.
You should know that posting a few hands doesn't really show anything else than that you're making at least as many assumptions as I am
betrthanphil
Ill keep posting as i get them if you want lol
Richard~
well, you've successfully showed that there's at least one less than stellar player playing micro tournaments calling unexploitable shoves too wide. If you want to show that there's at least 2 be my guest, it won't hold any meaning unless you post a proportionate amount of hands where random villains limpfold
betrthanphil
lol yeah just one. I wont waste anymore of my time on this. your in denial
Richard~
and you're not getting what I'm saying. You can post hands all you want, that won't give you a representative sample
betrthanphil
better then making assumptions :P
[deleted]
betrthanphil;280085 wrotebetter then making assumptions :P
ill get in this tonight but is this my assumptions....cause it wasn't an assumption he folds most of his range that was the read...but if thats not what were talking about ill smoke on,,,
betrthanphil
we are talking about over a large sample you will get the call and will be more profitable in the long run then not shoving
jdAA88
Richard~;280082 wrotewell, you've successfully showed that there's at least one less than stellar player playing micro tournaments calling unexploitable shoves too wide. If you want to show that there's at least 2 be my guest, it won't hold any meaning unless you post a proportionate amount of hands where random villains limpfold
hand hurts my brain cos JeanGrae is a sicko
betrthanphil
jdAA88;280092 wrotehand hurts my brain cos JeanGrae is a sicko
I know haha maybe why its a bad example. Dont know why he was in this micro haha
[deleted]
betrthanphil;280087 wrotewe are talking about over a large sample you will get the call and will be more profitable in the long run then not shoving
yes but for this example the reason i marked the hand is because i felt he would fold alot of his range to a shove....a random player i don't think will fold as much....
i haven't read this thread tho...