HVEEPOKER;265029 wrote@ BOWL BOY,
Brilliant legal minds. I really want these lawyers working for me. This way I can be indicted on Bank and Wire Fraud charges.
Personally I don't give a shit about the Illegal Gambling charges. Why. because they are probably going to go away.
Being indicted and being convicted are two different things and the latter has yet to happen. In the meantime, Stars and Tilt have both made a killing in the US market. I never stated in my post that the way in which the sites conducted themselves with regards to the banks and payment processors was particularly smart. I only said that staying in the US market was not necessarily as stupid as you think given that they have competent legal advisors at their disposal.
As for the fraud charges, who is the victim here? Does there not need to be a victim in a fraud charge? I haven't heard of any banks losing money on this. The only victims I see are the players whos funds have been illegally seized by the DOJ time and time again which the sites have reimbursed them for.
It's not the fact whether or not Poker is Skilled or Luck. It's not 100% a game of skill like say Chess or Checkers.
Its not 100% luck like walking up to a slot machine dropping a 20 in it , giving the arm a tug or pushing a button and hitting the Jackpot.
The fact is, skill predominates in poker. It does not have to be 100% skill to be a game of skill. There are elements of chance in pretty much any game. I'm an avid chess player and I have lost many games due to unlucky circumstances in which I didn't see the correct move that I should have been able to see for whatever reason or my opponent makes a brilliant play above his skill level for the wrong reasons. Golf has elements of chance in it but is still considered a game of skill. So the question is and always has been does skill predominate? The answer is obviously yes. Anybody who says no obviously sucks at poker.
Fact is is that they set up an elaborate way to transfer money on to a poker site. Credit card companies banks and all other financial institutions stopped processing payments for these sites as the Government said it was ILLEGAL to facilitate such transactions.
When you say that the government said it was illegal, which part of the government are you referring to? Legislators clearly have not said it is illegal in the UIGEA because poker was not defined in that law as unlawful gambling so technically - it doesn't apply. The DOJ is not the government. They are a government agency whose task it is to enforce laws - not write them. It will eventually be proved imo that poker was never clearly defined as illegal and therefore those transactions were never illegal either.
Tilt Stars and UB/AP ar now alleged to have set up fake companies and bribed several small banks (INVESTMENTS FROM EXECUTIVES TO BANKS THAT WERE IN BAD SHAPE. MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. Does this get any clearer my Friend.
No it is not clear. That is why I am posting. Because you keep claiming how clearly Stars is phuked. And you are wrong. Once again, it comes down to whether or not the transactions were ever illegal in the first place. If they were not - then the sites did nothing wrong by offering banks incentives. Incentive and investment deals happen all the time in perfectly legal business arrangements. If the transactions they were processing were legal to begin with then this is no different.
It is also common practice for certain types of legal internet business to disguise the nature of the transactions for the sake of their customers privacy. ie porn website memberships :)
They have screwed themselves out of the biggest market in the world.
They will NEVER OPERATE IN THE US AGAIN. Regardless of the outcome of trials.
Again, you state things as if they are 100% clear and once again you are wrong. If the sites manage to beat the DOJ in court and the outcome of the trial is that they did not do anything illegal then the sites will have legal recourse under international economic treaties to access the US market. I'm not claiming this would 100% be the case. I'm not just saying you're wrong about them 100% not being able to ever access the US market.
AP is all but finished. I use to play on AP. 6 yrs ago. On a Wed night at midnight you would find 150K or more players playing. Tonight I checked
Just over 3ooo .
To be Honest I think they will disappear in the next say 3 weeks and no one who has played on that site is going to see a single cent of their money.
Probably UB too. Good Luck with that.
At least we agree on one thing.
Stars probably will survive Largest of the 3 big European pool. BUT
If England, France and Italy decide to do the same thing as the States or not let them play within their countries borders . BYE BYE Pokerstars.
Tilt 50/50 chance I will give them to survive.
I seriously doubt that England is to do anything here. They are so much more liberal when it comes to online gambling they must think that US policy and the DOJ is retarded. France and Italy have already licensed Poker Stars to operate within their country. Surely they were aware that Poker Stars was operating in the US despite the interpretations of the UIGEA at the time the license was issued.
Next question. If these guys are so Innocent then Why are they hiding in another country? Why not come back and face the MUSIC.
They will continue to hide cause they know they are pooched.
I'm sure that like you, me and everybody else in the free world, they like their freedom.
I truly am happy our American Friends are going to get their money and I feel bad for what has happened to them but that's the way it is.
Side Note Here before I go to work.
Cash Poker is Gambling. If you are in the hand you are (BETTING) on the outcome of the Cards in your hand against the cards in your opponents hand.
Tournament poker is the same. Basically your Buy-In is a wager on the outcome of an event. You can either win ( Cashing ) or lose Busting Out before the MONEY!
Nobody is saying that Cash Poker is not gambling. The argument is that it is a game of skill and that skill predominates. That argument will eventually be won.
If tournament poker is gambling then so are golf tournaments. You buy-in and wager that money that you are going to win. Remember that the chips have no monetary value in a poker tournament. I'm not saying that poker is not gambling. What I am saying is that if it is defined as gambling then many other things can be as well. Next thing you know the DOJ will be blocking golf pros from recieving their prizes and locking them up.