thoughts? lost value?

DennisG

I am running 30/24 over 35 hands so far..shown a mix, but have had pretty solid cards. Villian is 19/8

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $30(BB) Pacific
SB ($5,787)
Hero ($8,703)
UTG ($6,860)
UTG+1 ($4,575)
UTG+2 ($5,930)
MP1 ($4,680)
MP2 ($4,910)
CO ($4,850)
BTN ($4,600)

Dealt to Hero K:spade: K:club:

fold, fold, UTG+2 calls $30, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $120, fold, Hero raises to $405, fold, BTN calls $285

FLOP ($855) Q:club: 4:heart: Q:diamond:

Hero checks, looking to check raiseBTN checkslooking to check raise..

TURN ($855) Q:club: 4:heart: Q:diamond: 4:diamond:

Hero bets $427, BTN calls $427bigger queens certainly in his range..

RIVER ($1,709) Q:club: 4:heart: Q:diamond: 4:diamond: 2:spade:

Hero checks, BTN checks I decided to check call here but....is a value bet getting paid here with anything that isn't beating me? smaller pair maybe?

BTN shows T:heart: A:heart:
(Pre 33%, Flop 15.7%, Turn 6.8%)

Hero shows K:spade: K:club:
(Pre 67%, Flop 84.3%, Turn 93.2%)

Hero wins $1,709

[deleted]

i think a small defensive bet here would serve many purposes. if he doesn't have a queen then he certainly has call station in his blood. many of these hands he wouldn't feel the need to bet the river if you check but will call a small bet.

jdAA88

On the flop, if you checkraise, are you ever getting called by worse by villain with these stats very often?
And I probably bet the river, definitely will get looked up by pps and A-high sometimes.

[deleted]

jdAA88;233252 wroteOn the flop, if you check raise, are you ever getting called by worse by villain with these stats very often?

+1

check call is my play here

Vekked

Check-raising that flop is FPS, just bet it. On this specific turn check, and probably value bet a lot of rivers. Check-raise just scares him off marginal hands and gets you owned every time he has a Q, no way you should be getting it in on this flop. What buy-in is the tourn? Kinda matters for the line you choose.

Richard~

Check the flop for pot control and to avoid getting floated and then either bet turn check river or check turn bet river imo

DennisG

jdAA88;233252 wroteOn the flop, if you checkraise, are you ever getting called by worse by villain with these stats very often?

Well, actually I have him being pretty tight, so I am hoping something like AK, 1010, JJ.. again queens aren't out of the picture either..but, not that concerned..more thinking along the lines that, if I bet here, he just leaves without the Q...if I check raise, I gain a bet....I really expected a bet out of him when I checked the flop...or I would have just bet it..

Vekked;233255 wroteCheck-raising that flop is FPS, just bet it. On this specific turn check, and probably value bet a lot of rivers. Check-raise just scares him off marginal hands and gets you owned every time he has a Q, no way you should be getting it in on this flop. What buy-in is the tourn? Kinda matters for the line you choose.

Tourney is a 75 buck 50k guarantee, 400+ runners on 888. Mostly sat. players that are, for the most part, poor players.

Looking back over it...yeah...should have bet the river..as many pp's and A high might call as JD mentioned..but when he flatted the turn bet I immediately saw monsters under the bed (AQ in particular) instead of the rest of the possibilities..

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Richard~;233259 wroteCheck the flop for pot control

this i think is the key to this hand.

actyper

This is early in a tourney, bet for value, no trickery required. You don't have to play for stacks, but even you noted that this is mostly poor players playing.

syphilaids

I don't knnow about checking the flop. You have been pretty active lately, and depending on your cbet% and aggro factor I think you need to bet this flop. If you check here it looks very suspicious, and I almost allways check back if I was villian. My line here is bet flop, bet/call turn, c/c river.

As played, I value bet river. Something small thats callable, like 1/3 pot.

[deleted]

syphilaids;233317 wrote My line here is bet flop, bet/call turn, c/c river.

so if villain has a queen, you bet flop, then bet the turn, and call a re raise (no you didn't mean that), then check call the river bet?

syphilaids

darbday;233320 wroteso if villain has a queen, you bet flop, then bet the turn, and call a re raise (no you didn't mean that), then check call the river bet?

If I KNOW villian has a Q then I check/fold flop. This may be a leak of mine, but if he's floating with AK high, JJ, TT, 99 etc. then we need to value bet turn as well. If he's willing to float the flop, he'll float the turn. You also can't assume that every time he raises the turn he has a Q. I never give him credit for a 4 so only a Q is beating us. Since we know 2 of them are out, He can ONLY have AQ or QQ. MAYBE KQs and QJs but thats stretching it. Either way there's a lot more combinations of hands that we beat that will call 2 bets then would beat us.

[deleted]

syphilaids;233325 wroteIf I KNOW villian has a Q then I check/fold flop. This may be a leak of mine, but if he's floating with AK high, JJ, TT, 99 etc. then we need to value bet turn as well. If he's willing to float the flop, he'll float the turn. You also can't assume that every time he raises the turn he has a Q. I never give him credit for a 4 so only a Q is beating us. Since we know 2 of them are out, He can ONLY have AQ or QQ. MAYBE KQs and QJs but thats stretching it. Either way there's a lot more combinations of hands that we beat that will call 2 bets then would beat us.

villains preflop play includes a wide range. kqo, qt, aa, and weird things to raise from button and call a raise when the limper folded, id do q8s and q9s every time (for this reason).

we don't know he has a queen but id like to protect myself a little from all that range. not look like a donkey when we bet half our stack off and call a river shove because we are commited and believe we are ahead of his range.

or maybe we fold because the villain realized we wouldn't bet out with a queen and stacks us at some point.

i think betting the hand up is throwing to much around while being totally in the dark.

Richard~

syphilaids;233325 wroteIf I KNOW villian has a Q then I check/fold flop. This may be a leak of mine, but if he's floating with AK high, JJ, TT, 99 etc. then we need to value bet turn as well. If he's willing to float the flop, he'll float the turn. You also can't assume that every time he raises the turn he has a Q. I never give him credit for a 4 so only a Q is beating us. Since we know 2 of them are out, He can ONLY have AQ or QQ. MAYBE KQs and QJs but thats stretching it. Either way there's a lot more combinations of hands that we beat that will call 2 bets then would beat us.

Why would he be willing to float the turn just because he was willing the float the flop? this would be a major leak for our villain in that case. Also, given that he ended up showing down the a10o or whatever it was, you probably can't make too many assumptions about his range, he probably hates folding to 3bets

[deleted]

Richard~;233336 wrotehe probably hates folding to 3bets

if he's me, he's very happy playing on the button against such a polarized big blind hand

syphilaids

Richard~;233336 wroteWhy would he be willing to float the turn just because he was willing the float the flop? this would be a major leak for our villain in that case. Also, given that he ended up showing down the a10o or whatever it was, you probably can't make too many assumptions about his range, he probably hates folding to 3bets

Because in this situation whatever he has, either nothing has changed for him or his hand improved. Any A high hand is ahead or chopping any unmade hand, which might call another bet if he thought he was ahead on the flop. Any lower PP thought he was good on the flop here, so he would probably call or raise the turn. We might certainly bet an A high hand here too given our aggression so far, so sometimes he's correct.

Villian allready has a major leak calling a 3bet with AT and floating the flop when he missed, so why not exploit it more? Given that he has a small range of holdings, and I really dont put him on QT and Q9 because it's just a horrible play imo, I believe this is a hand where we get value from.
I would be much more scared of a flop like TT9 suited board. But this QQ4 is a nice flop for a hand, and I don't mind double barrelling this and c/c the river here.

[deleted]

syphilaids;233415 wrote Villian allready has a major leak calling a 3bet with AT and floating the flop when he missed, so why not exploit it more? Given that he has a small range of holdings, and I really dont put him on QT and Q9 because it's just a horrible play imo,

he raised, from the button, to isolate the early limper in position was re raised and gets to play at a pot in position against JJ+, AKs which is what your representing i think. i'd say its standard and i think lots of players get in that spot with qts q9s etc.

Richard~

syphilaids;233415 wroteBecause in this situation whatever he has, either nothing has changed for him or his hand improved

No, we bet a second time which is a pretty big change from the flop situation

Vekked

darbday;233416 wrotehe raised, from the button, to isolate the early limper in position was re raised and gets to play at a pot in position against JJ+, AKs which is what your representing i think. i'd say its standard and i think lots of players get in that spot with qts q9s etc.

Gl making a profit playing against ppl with a nutted range with marginal hands. Its standard to snap fold those pre.

Vekked

syphilaids;233317 wroteI don't knnow about checking the flop. You have been pretty active lately, and depending on your cbet% and aggro factor I think you need to bet this flop. If you check here it looks very suspicious, and I almost allways check back if I was villian. My line here is bet flop, bet/call turn, c/c river.

This sounds like a sweet way to get value towned by a Q. Fish are almost always going to slowplay flop, and raise or call turn, then bet river if checked to. You're not getting 3 streets of value in this hand unless someone's spazzing.