Too racey or obvious shove?

syphilaids

Richard~;231160 wroteI can respect that but we need to remember that this is not an unexploitable range so with the wrong image this can become -EV

I doubt it. The point being made here is that we're F*cked without a double up. In reality, we need to quadruple up to not be in the danger zone. We need to win blinds/all in flips, so if we ship the top 20% of hands we're in pretty good shape. Villians' usually only call with ~10-15% (depending on stacks, KJs+, AT+, 77+). Obviously some are more willing to get it in then others, and the times we get folds from hands that dominate us > the hands that call us that have us dominated. Even with a loose image, if we ship with T9s, could you call with TJ? pretty tough.

Overall this play is +EV imo.

Vekked

Richard~;231160 wroteI can respect that but we need to remember that this is not an unexploitable range so with the wrong image this can become -EV

Actually I'm pretty sure it is an unexploitable range...

darbday;231169 wrotei realize there's a set answer for this as far as say sngwizard will show. but the question kinda suggests would you rather shove kqo from early position, or pay one blind round and shove late with likely ace rag or pp.

Shove both, both will show a profit... why choose?

Richard~

Vekked;231213 wroteActually I'm pretty sure it is an unexploitable range...

Shove both, both will show a profit... why choose?

As long as it's unexploitable I say go for it obv ^^' Just wasn't sure it was since my shove chart doesn't cover some of the hands.

The second point you make is awesome either way and I think it's something a lot of players mess up by passing up a marginal +EV spot since they think they can get a better one later and thus they'll be playing with a chip deficit

Vekked

Richard~;231221 wroteAs long as it's unexploitable I say go for it obv ^^' Just wasn't sure it was since my shove chart doesn't cover some of the hands.

Yea it's pretty close at least, any chart/calculator/etc is going to be slightly different for various reasons, since some of the hands are barely +EV and no calc is perfect.

[deleted]

Vekked;231213 wrote
Shove both, both will show a profit... why choose?

no no, the choice is in the first shove or fold....

[deleted]

syphilaids;231209 wrote In reality, we need to quadruple up to not be in the danger zone.

i would like to know if everyone agrees with this.....

Vekked

darbday;231236 wroteno no, the choice is in the first shove or fold....

I was just referring to his option of shoving this utg or something else in late position. Might as well shove now AND if we get a good spot to shove in late position.

darbday;231237 wrotei would like to know if everyone agrees with this.....

Not sure what it means really. Our stack is perfectly fine to play with right now, although we don't have many options.

BlondeFish

Yes, it's an approximation of Nash Equilibrium, i.e., in most cases, players will not be able to improve their equity significantly when unilaterally deviating from the calculated range.

Vekked;231223 wroteYea it's pretty close at least, any chart/calculator/etc is going to be slightly different for various reasons, since some of the hands are barely +EV and no calc is perfect.

syphilaids

Vekked;231239 wrote
Not sure what it means really. Our stack is perfectly fine to play with right now, although we don't have many options.

I'm not talking about getting 4 callers with our all-in, I mean we need Quadruple our stack (M=16) to play post-flop poker or have any chance of cashing.
I'm saying try to get out of this red zone asap. I'd rather ship a large amount of hands to steal/double up or get bust. I won't sit around with an M=4 and wait for AK while losing chips every round/hand.

Vekked

syphilaids;231400 wroteI'm not talking about getting 4 callers with our all-in, I mean we need Quadruple our stack (M=16) to play post-flop poker or have any chance of cashing.
I'm saying try to get out of this red zone asap. I'd rather ship a large amount of hands to steal/double up or get bust. I won't sit around with an M=4 and wait for AK while losing chips every round/hand.

I agree with not waiting around and looking for spots to double up, but even though we're in harrington's 'red zone' we shouldn't lose patience. Still look for profitable spots, you can certainly grind a stack with an M of 4-6 from start to finish (except for heads up) in an MTT if necessary.

ReefAquarium

Vekked;231103 wroteYou guys are wayyy too tight. You should be shoving at LEAST as light as A8s, KJo, ATo, 22, Q9s and T9s. Also, suitedness still very much matters when shoving pre-flop, since it could be the difference between a shove being profitable or not. The extra 2-3% equity goes a long way when you're pushing thin edges to begin with.

BlondeFish;231127 wroteAgreed. With an M of only 4 and paying the blinds next, I would go all-in with ~18% of hands:
22+, ATo+, A7s+, KJo+, K9s+, QJo, Q9s+, J9s+ T9s.

I would much rather have the same hand SUITED instead of unsuited, e.g., KQs >> KQo. While a suited hand may not seem to have significantly more equity against a RANDOM hand than its unsuited counterpart, what matters more is its equity against the range of hands with which somebody will call the all-in. KQs does quite well compared to KQo against the types of hands that make up a significant percentage of calling hands, such as big aces and pairs.

Being suited adds about 4%. And as stated above this is huge.

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