Live Tournament Hand for Discussion

SteveKerr

You have been moved a new table and maybe saw 5 or 6 hands that you did not play and they never went past the flop if they even saw the flop.

you are in the big blind and dealt A J suited, with blinds 600 - 1200 - 75ante and you have 10k in chips.

Folded to dealer who pushes all in for 5500, small blind then also pushes all in for about 13k.

I put the dealer on any 2 cards basically a face card and rag, and is trying to steal blinds and antes.

What do you do after small blind pushes and has you covered?

Richard~

I'd fold if I've more than 15 BB's. You're rarely a big favorite against SB's range when deeper. I suppose with over 10%'s of my chips in the pot though I'd get it in, unless there's a bubble soon.

With stacks this shallow SB's likely to be shoving wide enough to make it a call. You need to make something happen when you're this short and you have decent equity against the SB's iso

DennisG

payout structure is definitely a consideration, but yeah, like Richard has pointed out..over 10% of our stack is in, and we are obviously less than 10bb...get it in and hang on..

blackmagicz

We are drawing maybe to 3 outs. Figure short stack has Ax or Kx and SB has a pair. I don't like this spot at all in a live game based on the action before me. I rather be calling with a pair in this situation not AX with 2 people.

Richard~

blackmagicz;212888 wroteWe are drawing maybe to 3 outs. Figure short stack has Ax or Kx and SB has a pair. I don't like this spot at all in a live game based on the action before me. I rather be calling with a pair in this situation not AX with 2 people.

Since button should be shoving wide and SB is isoing all of his calling hands he's just as likely to be the one drawing to 3 outs though (actually more likely as A2-A10 form a larger part of his range than AQ, AK and JJ+)

Tilter

^^ Agreed, SB should be iso'ing all pairs 22+, A2ss+, A6o+, K8ss+, KTo+, QJss if button is ~ATC opening. But I'm not sure enough people have very good pre-flop iso'ing ranges, so it's probably tighter than that and seeing a couple hands on the player helps. Like if I see a player open to 2.5x instead of 3x, I think they are a more thinking player about bet sizing + ranges.

DennisG

blackmagicz;212888 wroteWe are drawing maybe to 3 outs. Figure short stack has Ax or Kx and SB has a pair. I don't like this spot at all in a live game based on the action before me. I rather be calling with a pair in this situation not AX with 2 people.

Are we drawing? Or are they? We are likely ahead in this spot much more than behind, no? There are some underlying circumstances here...like buy in.. This would/could determine the quality of play we are against. Has the original shover played any of the last five hands? did he fold his blinds? This gives us more of an indication..

But again..and maybe this is a leak of mine..well, actually, I know it is..lol..but I am calling with AJ here..because I always feel they are pushing any two in position when short...and I always feel sb is an idiot and calling with any ace...too much online? maybe..

Richard~

What makes a big difference for me in this spot except for the fact that you're short is that SB is short meaning that his 3betting range is (or should be) the same as his calling range

SteveKerr

Tournament is a $500 buy in

Neither of these players played any hands while I was at the table. There was always raises before them where they just folded.

BADAPPLE67

Easy one, before the bubble fold after the money call call call

DennisG

SteveKerr;212907 wroteTournament is a $500 buy in

Neither of these players played any hands while I was at the table. There was always raises before them where they just folded.

This does make a difference for me...500 says these guys aren't the "happen to be in the building, I will take a shot for 20 bucks " kind of players..They were there to play...

That being said, button just folded his two blinds to raises, he knows he is coming into position and will be in a spot to gain those back...his range is pretty wide here..gotta be 30% if not more. SB, who is also short, knows that the buttons range is big..and his calling range (same as his push range) has to be 25-30%..he shoves not expecting you to have anything.

You pick up a top 10%...how do you not call?

Wetts likely will come in here and tell us to fold because of ICM...lol As this is reminiscent of the last thread we had this type of discussion..and fair enough...I am still not good enough to fold here.

My thoughts are we are against 10Jish and Ax..if we get unlucky so be it...I feel their ranges are big...One day I will learn and actually win a decent tourney..lol

DennisG

You know..this has been bugging me...been sitting here trying to put myself at that table..

I think in the situation, sitting at the table...I lay it down. On paper, or reading it here, I have a hard time folding..(which should likely be opposite...)

iNano78

I fold and don't give it a 2nd thought.

Well, ok, I give it a 2nd thought when they flip their cards over and it turns out I had them dominated and/or the flop comes AAJ and all that... but as for in that situation, I still fold.

GTA Poker

DennisG;212914 wroteThis does make a difference for me...500 says these guys aren't the "happen to be in the building, I will take a shot for 20 bucks " kind of players..They were there to play...

obv you haven't played against players that have no regard for money

DennisG

GTA Poker;212932 wroteobv you haven't played against players that have no regard for money

Everyday on the internet... but, in a live situation, I think the play, for this kind of money, is typically better than the 50 or 100 dollar buy for example. Any of the big shots with no regard for money should have already had their plates scraped clean this far in...Again...these are only my thoughts, as I haven't played that large of a buy in live personally.

GTA Poker

DennisG;212936 wroteEveryday on the internet... but, in a live situation, I think the play, for this kind of money, is typically better than the 50 or 100 dollar buy for example. Any of the big shots with no regard for money should have already had their plates scraped clean this far in...Again...these are only my thoughts, as I haven't played that large of a buy in live personally.

I don't play MTTs, but in live 5/5 and 5/10 cash games I have seen people easily plow through several 1k+ stacks with no regard and I know some of those players play the $500 MTTs around here

Wetts1012

Pretty sure I sigh fold here.

[deleted]

i don't pay live much, but even on the net i believe i could find a read that tells me if the small blind is doing this because he can isolate atc's from the button or if he picked up a hand and made an easy call.

i also believe i can fly

[deleted]

i just had this hand and heres what i thought. if the button folds to me i have an unexploitable shove with A2o or better (i totally just made that bs up, no idea how US actually works) . plus i can damn near put the button on atc cards (although its certainly not 100 range. and with or without the button i am at an US, and with the with the button, the shortstack makes it much more lucrative with the fold equity. plus if the button is in hand and i lose to it, i still have my US to end up with 9000 chips. I don't know if thats making sense but i think even with that range A2o or better. you can get a good idea.

note: i read some US articles that i didn't really understand, now is the time to sum it up for me. thx

or have i been inhaling to much poker talk and am putting random poker words together

blackmagicz

Ok well here has been my experience in live games, any part of a tournament any buy in from 20-500 bucks.

There have been many times where I have come across this situation, A10-AJ and even AQ close to money bubble, final table etc....and here is the pattern I have seen with this set up between 3 players.

Player 1 - the button - will be trying to pick up blinds antes when it is folded to them, this is a live game weak player move for the most part because they figure they can shove ATC. Now if we give villian credit for understanding some value towards their hand and their position in relation to the tournament and where they are as a stack at the table (i mean remember you are not looking to win the tournament at your table but have a nice stack size) he will likely be pushing with AX or KX (which can be wide).

Player 2 - SB - has just been shoved on. Based on hesitation factors of live tournament play if they call right away it is a huge pair or AK, AQ. Those are automatics for most regular tournament players.

Now in this situation Steve is a very good tournament player so he would need to evaluate how fast the decision was made by the SB to see if he could pick up how strong of a hand SB had. I mean if SB hesitates for just a few seconds it could seem as though SB has a pair between 22-88...which in live games are normally agonizing calls when putting a lot of chips in the middle.

Although it is great to discuss your "M" value, many players over value their hand based on this and don't realize poker can be deduced pyschologically as well where you can easily see where you are behind or where you are ahead because most live players are not good hand readers nor can they put their opponents on hands because they haven't experienced certain situations enough.

I mean granted the math here says you call and you can get lucky but if you have been playing for 8+ hours you are not looking to blow your tournament on a marginal holding with 2 people shoving ahead of you. Especially when you can find a much better spot.

I know myself personally I have had to lay down AK in situations knowing very well another player had AA because there was a re-raise and he min-raised the re-raise (i know very situational etc..blah blah) but mathematically it was correct for me to shove, but based on my read of the situation I laid it down and they flipped AQ vs AA. In this case I took into consideration where we were in the tournament, chips stacks, what the players looked like, the way their chips were stacked, how they were sitting etc....all psychological tells that are small but in a live game can mean life or death at the table.

Even players with no disregard for money still have some sense of not going out on a stupid hand or making a stupid play even though it may have been the correct one at the time...its just human nature...