Low Pairs

BigChrisEl

Quick question.

I was playing HORSE on-line and was in the limit Hold'em round. I was in the BB and the player UTG raised, the player on the button 3-bet. This was the first round of Limit Hold'em so there were zero reads.

Do you always call with low pairs there (6's or less) or is it an auto fold because you could be facing a 4 bet from UTG and you’ll have to play the pair out of position against two players?

STR82ACE

Personally, I like to play low pocket pairs if I can get in cheap enough and play for set value. The circumstance you outline though makes it sound like that isn't going to happen though, and you'll be in for 2BB before the flop. If you do hit your flop you can let the aggressors take the lead and then try to cap the betting on the turn and river, but if you miss you bail on the flop.

For the cost though, its sometimes worthwhile. Without reads, I would most likely muck pp's up to 6's, BUT NEVER 55!! They ALWAYS hit trips ;)

westside8

How deep are starting stacks?

BigChrisEl

westside8;178642 wroteHow deep are starting stacks?

More then 20 BB..remember this is LIMIT Hold'em

westside8

BigChrisEl;178646 wroteMore then 20 BB..remember this is LIMIT Hold'em

So assuming limits are 10/20, you started with 400 in chips?

BigChrisEl

westside8;178649 wroteSo assuming limits are 10/20, you started with 400 in chips?

Yes and more.

Big Mike

Is this a tourney or a ring game? If it's a tourney i'm folding.

Fwiw I'm not ever cold calling two against only a raiser and reraiser. If there was one more player cold calling then i'd call any pair.
In your situation you should muck deuces, treys and fours. Fives or sixes, if I were to play them I would always CAP because if you can ever get the first raiser to fold then it's a major coup, and only costs you one small bet more.
Folding isn't a bad route until you get some reads either.

What stakes you're playing would also be helpful.

Wetts1012

I know nothing of the limits poker, so....

How are deuces different then 6's or 7's?

ie, if your folding 2's why arent you folding 7's here. Or, if your capping 7's, why not cap 2's?

westside8

Wetts1012;178662 wroteI know nothing of the limits poker, so....

How are deuces different then 6's or 7's?

ie, if your folding 2's why arent you folding 7's here. Or, if your capping 7's, why not cap 2's?

IMO..no different in a tourney with a UTG raiser and re-raiser, but I'm not a limit expert so I'll defer to moose/Big Mike.

I might play this if there were another player or two involved, but I don't think there is enough value for me to cold-call and possibly face a capped pot to try to flop a set.

moose

I think in HORSE tourneys it is important not to piss away chips on low probabilities. You need to conserve your chips so that you have them when you need them in the big pots when the blinds grow. When the blinds are low the reward for flopping a set is low and the pots generally don't compensate on a pot odds basis for the risk 1:8 of flopping a set.

As the blinds go higher you are more likely to force players out with 3bets, however if your chips are low, opponents will call you down just to eliminate you. You need your chips for these situations so your opponents will fear the cost of calling you down and be more likely to fold.

Depending on the opponent the mid pairs have more showdown value unimproved. Small pp have almost no showdown value because of the increased likelihood your opponent outpairs you or the board counterfeits you or even set over set. Against lagtards that overplay Ax I call down all day long with unimproved pairs.

In cash games you have to be able to muck it up with the small pairs or your opponents will simply run you over. However the cost of being wrong when calling someone down unimproved in a cash game is simply the value of the pot. In a tournament the play is nittier and more straight forward, especially early as the relative stack sizes have little meaning in comparison to the blinds. 3bets have a more direct relationship to the cards than position and stack sizes, especially as it is more unlikely in limit to get someone to fold with a 3bet bluff early on. The cost of being wrong when calling down light in a limit tournament is much higher as chips can not be easily replaced with a quick double up as they can in a nl game.

Big Mike

Wetts1012;178662 wroteI know nothing of the limits poker, so....

How are deuces different then 6's or 7's?

ie, if your folding 2's why arent you folding 7's here. Or, if your capping 7's, why not cap 2's?

If the 3betting player is aggressive, he could be 3betting a hand like 44 or 55, or even A5s/A6s making your 6's, 7's and 8's that much better. On a lot of boards, a limit player will be calling you down with AK unimproved, so having 66 is a lot better on a board of 4J84J than deuces ;)
Moose's reply is also very good, though the OP has not yet totally clarified that this is a tourney situation unless I missed something.

In a cash game 66 I'd lean heavily towards folding, 77 is very close, and 88 i'd lean towards capping.

Big Mike

Hmmm....I really should give less away, since I'm playing vs moose in an LHE tournament tonight ChipTalk Limit Hold'em tournament New Players welcome
er..I cap deuces in the bb ALL DAY!:)

moose

moose;178666 wrote Against lagtards ( BigMIKE ) that overplay Ax I call down all day long with unimproved pairs.

Edit

Big Mike

moose;178676 wroteEdit

Touche. But watch out because I will spike my x on the river.

moose

Big Mike;178677 wroteTouche. But watch out because I will spike my x on the river.

Yes. New advice. Always fold against river rats/hoover boys.

pkrfce9

the book says when facing a raise from early positions, only premium hands should be played...

moose

...assuming the other guy read the same book.

BigChrisEl

moose;178707 wrote...assuming the other guy read the same book.

This was in a cash game and was low limit on-line.

With the action of the raise UTG I figured that player could be clueless and raising any sort of hand (6-7, K-6, etc), but then with a re-raise on the button chances are the button player has a legit hand of some sort. (Big Ace or pocket pair.) With the betting not closed I would think that if you were at all to play the hand you would need to cap it.

Trouble is playing the low pair out of position against two players. Unless you hit you are going to have to fold and even if you hit, it may be hard to get paid enough to make this call profitable in the long run.

I just wondering if my thinking is correct in a situation like this.

Big Mike

BigChrisEl;178736 wroteThis was in a cash game and was low limit on-line.

I just wondering if my thinking is correct in a situation like this.

I think your thinking is correct. Folding is probably a better choice in a HORSE game like that because it's 8 players (I'm used to 6max limit) and that means the UTG raise is more likely to be a legit hand. I think it does also mean players are more likely to play straightforwardly meaning your cap will get a lot of respect and your opponents actions will be very honest postflop.

pkrfce9

it's limit. just fold and don't even think twice