QQ Deep in the $3 Rebuy Facing Min Reraise

Monteroy

Normally I would shove, but the person who min reraised has an ROI of -94% over a healthy number of tournaments, and I have found the min reraise to often times be the play of choice of the really bad players. I just got moved to this table a few hands earlier.

The fellow who overcalled is also a bad player (-31%) but not as bad. I decided to just play for set value and give up any flop that did not have a Q or some wacky flop like 9 10 J which may offer potential outs

Never found out what the villian had, but I would have been stunned if my QQ was good, still I kind of wonder about the play in general. In terms of prize structure, while we were deep, it was still several levels before the real prizes kicked in.

PokerStars Game #22831580327: Tournament #125327982, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XXV (3000/6000) - 2008/12/11 18:32:04 ET
Table '125327982 134' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Rolf123 (71226 in chips)
Seat 2: mestre_urubu (315473 in chips)
Seat 3: Yvan69 (47762 in chips)
Seat 4: Hmmmmz (141513 in chips)
Seat 5: SEANSHADES (38568 in chips)
Seat 6: orb$1ne (80233 in chips)
Seat 7: Monteroy (113481 in chips)
Seat 8: MaaMoul (106267 in chips)
Seat 9: senta69 (161339 in chips)
Rolf123: posts the ante 750
mestre_urubu: posts the ante 750
Yvan69: posts the ante 750
Hmmmmz: posts the ante 750
SEANSHADES: posts the ante 750
orb$1ne: posts the ante 750
Monteroy: posts the ante 750
MaaMoul: posts the ante 750
senta69: posts the ante 750
Rolf123: posts small blind 3000
mestre_urubu: posts big blind 6000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Qc Qh]
Yvan69: folds
Hmmmmz: folds
SEANSHADES: folds
orb$1ne: folds
Monteroy: raises 12000 to 18000
MaaMoul: raises 12000 to 30000
senta69: calls 30000
Rolf123: folds
mestre_urubu: folds
Monteroy: calls 12000
*** FLOP *** [8s 5s 2d]
Monteroy: checks
MaaMoul: bets 75517 and is all-in
senta69: folds
Monteroy: folds
Uncalled bet (75517) returned to MaaMoul
MaaMoul collected 105750 from pot
MaaMoul: doesn't show hand

T8urmoney

If I'm only calling the min raise preflop.....I only check to call his all-in bet......otherwise I bet out on the flop. I believe you are ahead a large percentage of the time here.

westside8

I think I move in pre-here. And no way am I ever check-folding QQ with a 8-high flop in $3 MTT

ReefAquarium

I can't understand this...

Your stack to pot ratio is huge...

actyper

With the stack sizes as they are theres absolutely no way my chips don't end up in the middle preflop. If I hit the call button by mistake, the fold button isn't even an option on that flop. I think you over analysed, and took in too much information.

Monteroy

Yes and no. While obviously not every single player is the same, I have played in this tournament a lot and the behavior of the -80% to 100% people (who have played a lot of tourneys) tends to be either wild aggro with lots of preflop shoving or really, really bad loose passive play where they call all ins pre flop with any ace , any pair, KQ/KJ etc and post flop with any draw no matter what the stack sizes. These guys also always min reraise preflop with AA and KK while they reraise shove with baby pairs, any ace and KQ/KJ/K 10. I am not sure why they do this (price people in with AA/KK and shove when likely dominated) but it is what they do, and it certainly helps them toward their deep losing results.

Perhaps I over analyzed the situation a bit, but I have played against this type of player so much and in the vast majority of cases they show with AA when they min reraise, and that is why I shut down. Part of the thought process also is that his chips will be available in future as well in potentially better spots (as did eventually happen though obviously that's not a given).

While I agree QQ is a very solid hand and the over call makes for a very tempting squeeze play situation, I am a bit surprised that any potential context of the situation has no value to many, though perhaps I am in error.

Anyway, thanks for the responses.

BlondeFish

I think what ReefAquarium and I are saying is that you have to be over 70% positive that you are up against AA/KK for your huge laydown to be correct. I'm an online donkey, so I would have clicked the all-in button instantly and skip calculating the stack-to-pot ratio, ICM equities, etc.

Monteroy;172989 wroteI am a bit surprised that any potential context of the situation has no value to many, though perhaps I am in error.

Johnith

I think this whole confusion on the flop could have been avoided if you simply reraise again preflop. Why let the hands like KQ, AJ, A10 even or the lower pocket pairs see a cheap flop? With a vulnerable hand like QQ you MUST raise here to elimate those hands that can easliy beat you when a K A or coordinated flop hits. However you can slow play the queens preflop IF your willing to put it all in on a favorable flop.

Monteroy

Johnith;173137 wroteI think this whole confusion on the flop could have been avoided if you simply reraise again preflop. Why let the hands like KQ, AJ, A10 even or the lower pocket pairs see a cheap flop? With a vulnerable hand like QQ you MUST raise here to elimate those hands that can easliy beat you when a K A or coordinated flop hits. However you can slow play the queens preflop IF your willing to put it all in on a favorable flop.

While I appreciate the Poker Theory 101 lecture, again let me reiterate that this was a very specific situation where a specific type of player (ie: a very very bad -80 to 90% ROI) took a line that usually means AA or KK for very, very bad players in this tournament. 99%+ of the time my chips are going all in with QQ here, but this was one of those extreme situations in my mind where I felt this SPECIFIC type of opponent only does this bad min reraise play with AA or KK, mainly because that is exactly the way these guys have played those hands in the past.

Ironically enough I call a shove from this guy because usually a shove means a hand like 66 or A rag from these guys (hands they happily call all ins with as well for any amount preflop).

There was no confusion in my mind how to play the hand once I saw this type of players betting line. I was priced in for set value, missed the set (and any other odd flop like 9 10 J) and gave it up.

Granted I will never know if it was the right play in this specific instance, but I was curious what others thought of this type of situation. I assume all who have played a lot have come across strange situations where you make a play you normally would not because of the situation.

Same thing with KK preflop. I definitely remember the 2 times I folded it when normally I would not preflop (satellite bubble play not included) and in both cases the opponent had AA. One time was when a 4.0/0.1 VPIP/pfr guy reraised all in a full buy in preflop a raise and call before them and I was staring at KK, second time was when a guy said he had AA before shoving as he had a friendly ongoing chat with the BB. I folded my KK on the button, the SB called with A 10 in the SB and lost to the AA. If I posted either of these hands without any context it would look like that is how I normally play KK. Same thing with the hand in this thread.

blackmagicz

I think a lead out on the flop could get more information. If I read this correctly he called a re-raise OOP with QQ so you are first to act??

I tend to agree with OP here with the assessment of the hand because I have seen this a gazillion times because most players don't know how to extract value out of KK or AA (hence the min raise) because they want some sort of value from the hand.

The shove on the flop however doesn't make any sense in my mind as you are both sitting with 100K stacks so really what kind of range does he put you on? I realize there is a flush draw out there but I think your check signifies weakness more than anything and he could have easily shoved with any two cards at that point to take down the pot.

But once again this hand is truly read dependant and I would have to evaluate if I have an edge over the rest of the players to make this big of a lay down.

Monteroy

blackmagicz;174407 wroteI think a lead out on the flop could get more information. If I read this correctly he called a re-raise OOP with QQ so you are first to act??

He will shove any flop with his AA/KK regardless of who leads out what.

blackmagicz;174407 wroteI tend to agree with OP here with the assessment of the hand because I have seen this a gazillion times because most players don't know how to extract value out of KK or AA (hence the min raise) because they want some sort of value from the hand.

They maintain their long term -90% ROI rate via playing essentially backwards.

blackmagicz;174407 wroteThe shove on the flop however doesn't make any sense in my mind as you are both sitting with 100K stacks so really what kind of range does he put you on?

He does not put other players on ranges of hands. He looks at his own hand and that is about as far as it goes. I used to run into trouble trying to figure out what they were putting me on until I realized that was never part of the equation. This is why you see these guys call 150 BB shoves preflop with hands like A8 suited. A8 suited looks pretty.

blackmagicz;174407 wroteI realize there is a flush draw out there but I think your check signifies weakness more than anything and he could have easily shoved with any two cards at that point to take down the pot.

Again, you are attributing a level of thinking to this type of player that does not exist.

blackmagicz;174407 wroteBut once again this hand is truly read dependant and I would have to evaluate if I have an edge over the rest of the players to make this big of a lay down.

That plus my belief that this type of player has KK/AA 95% of the time was why I played my QQ the way I did.

blackmagicz

LOL........all valid points. I will go back into my cave......:)

actyper

If a player like this slow plays AA/KK preflop, isn't it more likely that they slow play it post flop as well?

westside8

The fact you keep say "this is my read for 95% of the time" or whatever, you are not leaving much room here for arguement/discussion, bur rather just looking for approval

Monteroy

westside8;174424 wroteThe fact you keep say "this is my read for 95% of the time" or whatever, you are not leaving much room here for arguement/discussion, bur rather just looking for approval

Hardly, I emphasize that it is my read and experience, but I am also aware that we all get trapped by our beliefs at times. Hence, I was wondering how others handled this situation with regard to this specific type of opponent.

A lot of the replies have been correct based on a random unknown type of opponent with at least semi skill, but that is not the situation I thought I was in. In that scenario (vs semi skilled players) I shove QQ preflop in a second with how the action went preflop.

And regarding how these types of guys play AA/KK, they pretty much do the min raise/reraise preflop then are all in no matter what stack sizes/flop are post flop (except maybe when they flop quads or something), so his shove was pretty much expected (in my eyes). Again, they maintain their -90% ROIs by playing basically backwards.

Seriously, if the opponent was a -25% guy this hand never would have been posted, I either would have lost to another pair or Ax all in preflop or not, which happens pretty much every day (more the latter lately :P )

So if it seems that I am merely looking for a pat on the back, the reality is I am looking to see how other people have handled this type of player in this type of situation, which granted is not common.