What would you have done and why.

The Prophet 22

A little background first before I get to the hand in question.

I have played with this guy several times before and pretty much understand his game. He is not afraid to throw chips into the pot and hope to catch a card if he feels it coming. (An exact quote). Cracked my aces in the first hand of a tournament 20K starting stack hoping for a runner runner flush with top pair and a 4 kicker. I put him all in on the turn for 12K and he got the 7d for a flush and won the hand.

Fast forward 8 months.

This same gentlemen gets move to my table with a huge chip stack. 13 players left blinds are 1k-2k-300 or 400 antes

Two hands before this hand I am about to explain, he loses 125K Queens full of 10’s to King’s full of 10’s

He limps, button calls small blind folds, I check with Q7 os. My chip stack is about 110k. Button has 47K. And the gentlemen had 49K.

Flop comes Qs 2s 8h. I check, he checks, button raises to 7k. I flat call, gentlemen goes all in. Button folds.

Three questions.

What is the correct play?

What would you do?

And why would you do it?

I will post tomorrow how it ended after I get off work.

Prophet 22

Big Mike

The Prophet 22;168060 wroteA little background first before I get to the hand in question.

I have played with this guy several times before and pretty much understand his game. He is not afraid to throw chips into the pot and hope to catch a card if he feels it coming. (An exact quote). Cracked my aces in the first hand of a tournament 20K starting stack hoping for a runner runner flush with top pair and a 4 kicker. I put him all in on the turn for 12K and he got the 7d for a flush and won the hand.

Fast forward 8 months.

This same gentlemen gets move to my table with a huge chip stack. 13 players left blinds are 1k-2k-300 or 400 antes

Two hands before this hand I am about to explain, he loses 125K Queens full of 10’s to King’s full of 10’s

He limps, button calls small blind folds, I check with Q7 os. My chip stack is about 110k. Button has 47K. And the gentlemen had 49K.

Flop comes Qs 2s 8h. I check, he checks, button raises to 7k. I flat call, gentlemen goes all in. Button folds.

Three questions.

What is the correct play?

What would you do?

And why would you do it?

I will post tomorrow how it ended after I get off work.

Prophet 22

I believe the correct play, and thus what I would do, is fold. He is likely either way ahead (set, 2pr, or better kicker Queen) or on a draw. If you know his game well, it may be that he would not ever make a play like that with a very strong hand, so it may be skewed strongly to a draw.
Problem is, what draw? You might actually be an underdog to the AsKs, and even against 9sTs you are only 52/48. Against Ks8s or Js8s you are also behind.

It was a limped pot, and you are risking almost half your chipstack with top pair (very) weak kicker. Fold, imo.

ReefAquarium

The Prophet 22;168060 wroteA little background first before I get to the hand in question.

I have played with this guy several times before and pretty much understand his game. He is not afraid to throw chips into the pot and hope to catch a card if he feels it coming. (An exact quote). Cracked my aces in the first hand of a tournament 20K starting stack hoping for a runner runner flush with top pair and a 4 kicker. I put him all in on the turn for 12K and he got the 7d for a flush and won the hand.

Fast forward 8 months.

This same gentlemen gets move to my table with a huge chip stack. 13 players left blinds are 1k-2k-300 or 400 antes

Two hands before this hand I am about to explain, he loses 125K Queens full of 10’s to King’s full of 10’s

He limps, button calls small blind folds, I check with Q7 os. My chip stack is about 110k. Button has 47K. And the gentlemen had 49K.

Flop comes Qs 2s 8h. I check, he checks, button raises to 7k. I flat call, gentlemen goes all in. Button folds.

Three questions.

What is the correct play?

What would you do?

And why would you do it?

I will post tomorrow how it ended after I get off work.

Prophet 22

Hummm, Is CR all in with air in his range?
We know his range is big, since he'll throw chips in and try to hit.
Against a normal player this is a clear and easy fold.
Against a LAG who just lost a monster pot ... it's tempting...
But what can you beat? Q6 isn't likely, Is a bluff likely 50% of the time here? I'd try to think back about what else you've seen him play. Unless I've seen him CR all in with crap I'm laying this down.

STR82ACE

HUGE overbet screams he has nothing more than a flush draw. Knowing what you know of this guy he's likely pushing with air and hoping to draw out on you.

Call and hang on. You still have a very decent stack afterwards if he lucks out, and you know you can outplay him later on. But the chance to take him out is just too tempting. His luck can't hold out forever.

JimmyHo

what hands does he just call with here pre-flop? would he generally raise pre-flop w AA, KK, QQ, AQ, 22, 88? what does his check raise mean? have you seen him check raise in the past? did it indicate strength?

pkrfce9

meh, he has 12 outs.

you are a slight favourite and there is all that dead money in the pot. yes, you can find a better spot, but can you find one that will put you that much closer to the win? nope. give your chips a hug and a kiss and send them off.

Big Mike

For the record, if his range here is any two spades, you are a 55/45 favorite.
If his range includes any 2 spades plus 88,22,AQo,KQo, and AKo with the ace of spades, you are a 58/41 underdog to that range.

The_Awesome

"HUGE overbet screams he has nothing more than a flush draw. Knowing what you know of this guy he's likely pushing with air and hoping to draw out on you."

Sometimes I will use this to get my tripped pocket 2s paid off to the fullest and protect against the flush draw. Often you can get top pair shit kicker to call. If he thinks you will assume it's a draw based on previous play together it's a real valuable tactic to use. You are a smart enough player to know his tendancies... but is he a smart enough player to know you know?

I tend not to put much of my stack on the line with Q 7.

westside8

STR82ACE;168095 wroteHUGE overbet screams he has nothing more than a flush draw.

I don't know how you can consider this a huge overbet. Assuming full ring, there is just under 10K preflop...with the bet of 7K and OP's call on the flop, his CR is essentially a PSB.

I would've preferred to lead out here myself, but as played, his range is wide enough that with the dead money from the action before his shove, you are probably +ev in calling but its pretty close. He might be loose, but CR 2 players does seem strong - one piece of info that might help is...how often does he limp? And given your experience playing with him, is he a guy that open limp with ATC or having a tendency to set-mine/over-value suitedness?

STR82ACE

[QUOTE=The_Awesome;168113 but is he a samrt enough player to know you know?
[/QUOTE]

As written, I don't get the sense he IS that smart to make that kind of a move. Sounds more like a luck box player than anyone who plays with any kind of skill.

And I'm think my Q7 is good here. If he had Qx better kicker, or a set, I would expect him to lead out...might be hiding a set with a CR, but I don't think he would have just called with a PP of ANY size preflop. With the initial post flop better out of the picture now, the only hands that make any sense is suited and hoping to flush out on you.

Call. Still relying on your previous dealings with this guy, you know he's capable of bone head plays, but if he does have a monster hand, you're still good position stack wise to get them back.

13CARDS

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DennisG

Does no one else just think he limped with A8? or A2..maybe "he felt it"...

The_Awesome

Range of possible hands is too broad to risk half your chips IMHO.

Where did he limp from? If close to the button with no callers before him I'd even consider he limped with a big hand.

DennisG

Two hands before this hand I am about to explain, he loses 125K Queens full of 10’s to King’s full of 10’s

He limps, button calls small blind folds, I check with Q7 os. My chip stack is about 110k. Button has 47K. And the gentlemen had 49K.

Flop comes Qs 2s 8h. I check, he checks, button raises to 7k. I flat call, gentlemen goes all in. Button folds.

Check raise with A8.....trying to push everyone off..he did just take a massive hit..just a thought.

Too many chips to risk in that spot for me though...maybe..lol..probably would ahve to be there to see him..

Big Mike

Ihaveyourname;168142 wroteCheck raise with A8.....trying to push everyone off..he did just take a massive hit..just a thought.

No doubt that's a possibility, but it isn't enough of his range to make the call imo. To make the correct call we need to evaluate every hand he might possibly have to make this move. If his range is any two cards, then of course we call. If it's only sets, we have to fold. If it's something in between we need to make an educated guess and go with it.
And, because it's a tournament, we need to take into consideration our chipstack and his, as you say. We may need to pass up on a slightly +ev situation to avoid taking a big hit to our stack.

pkrfce9

brent, by just checking PF, and check/calling OOP, you have shown a lot of weakness. the button hasn't shown much strength either. he can't put you or the button on very strong hands. so your gentleman caller could be thinking he has a lot of fold equity. this could encourage him to bluff with a pretty wide range of hands.

with a normal player, it is pretty clear to me he doesn't have much of a hand here. with a big pair, he would have raised PF. with a pair + FD, he is likely betting out on the flop, not CRAI. with 2pr or better, he is betting that flop almost without a doubt.

so most likely he is either on a total bluff or he has a pair, pair + draw or just a draw. against that range and factoring in the dead money, it should be worth a call. sometimes he has you outkicked, sometimes he has a worse hand and gets lucky. so be it but you want to win, so pass the sugar.

The Prophet 22

Thanks for your thoughts. This hand happened almost a month ago and I still can’t stop thinking about it. I really was hoping Blondefish was going to make a post, because for some strange reason his voice was going through my head instead of the voice of my poker coach.

I checked in the dark before the flop and then realized I had top pair with a lousy kicker. I felt pretty good about having the best but need to see. The gentlemen checked button raised I flat called pretty sure that if he goes all in and the button folds I had the best hand and would call. Button in stata folds and I look straight at the guy and say I know exactly what you have. A or K spades with a 9 or 10 of spades or an 8. He stopped talking with his neighbor and was about to look at his cards but didn’t and resumed his conversation. I was convinced he was on the draw. I stood up after about 5 minute went off the blinds and I replayed the hand thru my head where he cracked my Aces with K 4. Then Blondefish goes through my head, why call of 41K when you will still have over 100k if you fold and then said I have the best hand with a Q you have one over and need a spade for the flush and you will suck out on me so I fold. He grabbed the chips and then through his cards face up K 9 spades.

I still can’t believe I didn’t call. I make that call 95% of the time if my read is IHAVE THE BEST HAND. If I have any doubt, I fold. Against this guy, I didn’t go with what I believe to be the correct play and call, because I BELIEVED he would hit the flush.

I later lost to him when we were all in, I had hit my Ace against his KK and he made a 4 card flush to go with one of his kings.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Prophet 22

PS Note to self, have your poker coach going through your head and erase Blondefish.

13CARDS

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The Prophet 22

13CARDS;168220 wrotePretty sure this was a troll, but...

Help me out, I am still learning and not quite sure what you really mean.

Prophet 22

13CARDS

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