what 'should' I have done

adpro

First of all, I folded my hand before the flop, but I was wondering what I 'should' have done if I ended up calling the pre-flop raise, which was impossible to do in my opinion.

I was just about ready to call it a night, I had my auto post BB unchecked and I was sitting one seat to the left of UTG.

I just won a small pot and was actually dealt some pretty nice cards. I think I got like 4 pairs out of 10 hands or something crazy. I was limping in and raising like crazy. One of my hands ended up being a full house, A's full of Q's, with my pocket aces. I think the other guy had trip Q's.

Either way, everyone thought I was loose because I was seeing a lot of flops with decent hands, and I ended up winning a few also, like the one above where I won quite a bit.

Anyway, here was the hand.

There were 10 players to begin with - 0.1/0.2 NL Party Poker

I was dealth 4h 4c

UTG raises to 0.14
I fold and so does everyone else but SB and two others

SB re-raises to 0.48 BB folds and one other calls

So, 3 players in the hand now

The flop comes

4d, Qd, Tc

UTG checks, SB raises $1, makes the next guy fold

UTG goes all in $7.11

SB folds

Now, I can say that the guy sitting UTG had a hand for sure. Not sure what he had, but he was playing fairly tight. I was putting him on AK, AA, KK or QQ. Maybe a smaller pair, but wasn't sure as I hadn't been playing too long.

Either way, that's why I folded.

The SB was a loose player. He likely had nothing and was trying to push the other guy out of the pot. He was known for bluffing and pushing people out of pots. I took a bunch of money from him a few times.

My question is, lets say I was a nut case and I called the pre-flop raises and saw that flop. I personally think I would have ended up folding to the all-in raise, but do you think I would have had the best hand with my set?

I mean, there is a chance that he had a set of Q's, right?

I think I answered my own question right there. I would have folded. However, if it were just the $1 bet, I might consider calling. I would have also been worried about the possible flush draw. I was thinking the all-in bet guy may have been on the nut flush draw with pocket A's and just wanted to push she other guy out of the pot if he could.

It's hard to say what the all-in guy would have done if I were in the pot though. He saw me win a bunch of hands and get good cards. He also was only risking about $2.50 total, as that's all the other guy had left, whereas he would have been risking his whole stack if he tried to push me all-in. So, he may have played differently, but lets assume not.

Anyone want to tell me what they would do and why?

Thanks!

Kristy

if you got to that flop you can never, ever, ever, evereverever fold a set to these players on that board.

ever.

Q"There is a chance that he had a set of q's, right"

A-yes, but the chance that he doesn't is so much greater.

pkrfce9

my eyes got cancer trying to get through this

stack sizes? if deep enough, you should always call PF.

and yes, timmy, you never fold here. you are worried about a LAG holding a miracle hand? yes, it happens but not often enough for you to lose money. there's also a chance he's on a draw here and could suck out. still not a good reason to fold.

try to come up with a list of all the possible hands he could be doing this with. pokerstove or twodimes can show you your equity against this range. factor in the money already in the pot and i have no doubt you are huuuuuuuuuuuuge here.

adpro

pkrfce9;161516 wrotemy eyes got cancer trying to get through this

stack sizes? if deep enough, you should always call PF.

and yes, timmy, you never fold here. you are worried about a LAG holding a miracle hand? yes, it happens but not often enough for you to lose money. there's also a chance he's on a draw here and could suck out. still not a good reason to fold.

try to come up with a list of all the possible hands he could be doing this with. pokerstove or twodimes can show you your equity against this range. factor in the money already in the pot and i have no doubt you are huuuuuuuuuuuuge here.

Ok, first of all, cancer of the eye? Sorry about that. Can you explain??? I thought I explained enough.

Here is the hand and stack sizes. Also note that I did mention them in the post and I also mentioned that one of the players was playing tight. UTG was playing very tight. He was a rock. I explected him to have a decent hand, especially when check-raising all-in against a fish who was known to never fold.

So, here is the hand. I'll explain more after.

$5 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, August 20, 22:52:17 ET 2008
Table Table 164929 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: tadder222 ( $7.59 USD )
Seat 5: rexpantera ( $2 USD )
Seat 6: sharkbait300 ( $6.94 USD )
Seat 8: Daimon01 ( $2.71 USD )
Seat 9: Ang3lofDarkX ( $4.23 USD )
Seat 10: mihay_83 ( $5 USD )
Seat 4: adprocas ( $6.97 USD )
Seat 1: GutShot4Me ( $5.01 USD )
Seat 7: javividrio ( $4.76 USD )
Seat 2: jr_manpoker ( $2 USD )
GutShot4Me posts small blind [$0.02 USD].
jr_manpoker posts big blind [$0.04 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to adprocas [ 4h 4c ]
tadder222 raises [$0.14 USD]
adprocas folds
rexpantera folds
sharkbait300 folds
javividrio raises [$0.48 USD]
Daimon01 folds
Ang3lofDarkX calls [$0.48 USD]
mihay_83 folds
GutShot4Me folds
jr_manpoker folds
tadder222 calls [$0.34 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, Qd, Tc ]
tadder222 checks
javividrio bets [$1 USD]
Ang3lofDarkX folds
tadder222 is all-In [$7.11 USD]
javividrio folds
tadder222 does not show cards.
tadder222 wins $9.44 USD
Ang3lofDarkX has left the table.

Can you please explain to me how I am supposed to call a 7xBB raise at a 10 man table with pocket 4's so early in position? I knew the chances of a re-raise were good, so I could bank on at least a 14xBB call in the end. It ended up being 24xBB to see a flop, with UTG being a very tight player and being the original raiser. He also called, which means he probably has something.

I feel the lay down of the 4's pre-flop was a good one. If you can show me the math on this at a 10 man generally loose table with a 7xBB raise from UTG with me UTG+1, I would appreciate it.

So, if I were to play this hand, I would have flopped a set. That's a good hand, right?

I already said UTG was a tight player and expected him to have something like AK, AA, KK or QQ. Especially because he went all-in against a player who was calling almost anything (the SB).

I had a feeling he hit a set on the flop as well.

So, yeah, odds are on your side with your bottom set, but against a very tight player and an all-in raise on the flop, can you call?

The pot was at $9.44, with me to call $7.11 to continue. I would have to be a 75% favourite to continue, wouldn't I?

Also, sorry about the eye cancer. Can you elaborate so I can avoid giving it to you next time?

Wetts1012

I can get away from the hand PF. Although I'll let someone else figure out the implied odds for set mining against a player whose range is pegged so tight.

Anyway - never fold a set on the flop.

http://www.pokerforum.ca/f53/folding-sets-flop-16547/

pkrfce9

adpro;161518 wrote$5 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, August 20, 22:52:17 ET 2008
Table Table 164929 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: tadder222 ( $7.59 USD )
Seat 5: rexpantera ( $2 USD )
Seat 6: sharkbait300 ( $6.94 USD )
Seat 8: Daimon01 ( $2.71 USD )
Seat 9: Ang3lofDarkX ( $4.23 USD )
Seat 10: mihay_83 ( $5 USD )
Seat 4: adprocas ( $6.97 USD )
Seat 1: GutShot4Me ( $5.01 USD )
Seat 7: javividrio ( $4.76 USD )
Seat 2: jr_manpoker ( $2 USD )
GutShot4Me posts small blind [$0.02 USD].
jr_manpoker posts big blind [$0.04 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to adprocas [ 4h 4c ]
tadder222 raises [$0.14 USD]
adprocas folds
rexpantera folds
sharkbait300 folds
javividrio raises [$0.48 USD]
Daimon01 folds
Ang3lofDarkX calls [$0.48 USD]
mihay_83 folds
GutShot4Me folds
jr_manpoker folds
tadder222 calls [$0.34 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, Qd, Tc ]
tadder222 checks
javividrio bets [$1 USD]
Ang3lofDarkX folds
tadder222 is all-In [$7.11 USD]
javividrio folds
tadder222 does not show cards.
tadder222 wins $9.44 USD
Ang3lofDarkX has left the table.

why are the seats mixed up? sadly, it aggravates my cancer. and makes it a lot harder to interpret the initial action.

looks like a .02/.04 table, not a .1/.2 (which i interpret you to mean .01/.02). eff stack sizes are 100+xBB. closer to 150xBB i think.

so UTG (tighty?) raises to 3.5xBB (not 7 as you mentioned), you fold, MP (LAG?) raises to 12xBB (not 24) and LP (playing style not mentioned) calls along with UTG. correct? this is a bit different than the way you presented it originally.

on the flop, UTG CRs the LAG who bets weakly at the flop after no one shows any interest. could he have a set? sure but he could also have AA, KK, AdKd, AQ or any 2 if he knows the LAG is swinging at anything.

as to the PF call, you can be reasonably certain you are behind UTG. however, you have a chance to make back 50x or more on your call. if it is a super aggressive table and you expect it to get re-raised 3 more times before it gets back to you, sure, you can fold. but i'd still be tempted to risk the 3.5xBB in hopes you can set mine.

with 2 potential draws on the flop, get the chips in as fast as you can. if you do get all-in, you are behind once in a while, beating a draw often and way ahead of an overpair or TPTK quite often as well.

the nice thing if it is re-raised behind you, there's a chance UTG doesn't re-re-raise. in which case, you can call and be reasonably certain there will be no more re-raises. even at 14xBB, with 2 opponents, you have a chance to make back 10-20x the call. so it is worth a call.

adpro

Wetts1012;161520 wroteI can get away from the hand PF. Although I'll let someone else figure out the implied odds for set mining against a player whose range is pegged so tight.

Anyway - never fold a set on the flop.

http://www.pokerforum.ca/f53/folding-sets-flop-16547/

I should make a correction.

I would have had to call 6.49 to be all-in for myself, not 7.11

So, I would have had to be a 8.82 total pot. So I would have to be a 73% favourite. Right?? Am I doing that properly?

After reading that post, I can see why calling anything with a set would be good. I just felt like that other guy was just trying to get people to raise him so he could try to trap them and have them pot committed. Maybe he only had top pair. Risky move if he only had that IMO. Either way, like I said, he must have had something big to try to push that other guy, cause I am honestly surprised he didn't call. He seemed like the type to call even if he only had an A with a low kicker.

adpro

pkrfce9;161522 wrotewhy are the seats mixed up? sadly, it aggravates my cancer. and makes it a lot harder to interpret the initial action.

looks like a .02/.04 table, not a .1/.2 (which i interpret you to mean .01/.02). eff stack sizes are 100+xBB. closer to 150xBB i think.

so UTG (tighty?) raises to 3.5xBB (not 7 as you mentioned), you fold, MP (LAG?) raises to 12xBB (not 24) and LP (playing style not mentioned) calls along with UTG. correct? this is a bit different than the way you presented it originally.

on the flop, UTG CRs the LAG who bets weakly at the flop after no one shows any interest. could he have a set? sure but he could also have AA, KK, AdKd, AQ or any 2 if he knows the LAG is swinging at anything.

as to the PF call, you can be reasonably certain you are behind UTG. however, you have a chance to make back 50x or more on your call. if it is a super aggressive table and you expect it to get re-raised 3 more times before it gets back to you, sure, you can fold. but i'd still be tempted to risk the 3.5xBB in hopes you can set mine.

with 2 potential draws on the flop, get the chips in as fast as you can. if you do get all-in, you are behind once in a while, beating a draw often and way ahead of an overpair or TPTK quite often as well.

the nice thing if it is re-raised behind you, there's a chance UTG doesn't re-re-raise. in which case, you can call and be reasonably certain there will be no more re-raises. even at 14xBB, with 2 opponents, you have a chance to make back 10-20x the call. so it is worth a call.

Sorry about my lack of 0's and the wrong blind counts.

Also, I was wondering why the seats are all mixed up as well. That's how the table history was sent to me. I copied it exactly.

So yeah, pre-flop 3.5xBB with knowing that it could go to 12xBB. You would call that knowing UTG is pretty tight?

The other player was average I would say. Not too tight, not too lose. Seems to see a lot of flops and folds on the flop a lot. Even if the flop is raised.

That was the general rule for the table. I expected more people to be in the pot to be honest.

I'm going to go through the history to see what UTG was like. I'll post more on him in a minute, but I was putting him on something pretty big.

I am starting to agree that if I were in this hand, a call to the all-in would have been a good call. I can't say I know what I would have done.

Also, with a pair of fours knowing that the pot was going to be at least 3.5xBB, I still don't see that as being a bad fold at such a loose table. What are the odds in hitting a set on the flop? 12%?

So, 12% chance of hitting says I could call 0.17 on a pot of 1.44. However, I originally thought the pot would be bigger, so the 0.48 call should have made sense to me probably. I also didn't think the call would be that high. (I thought more people would be in with a smaller bet size, which would have made it easier to call)

If I had called the 0.14 and it came back around, the pot would have been at 1.58 and I would have had 0.34 to call, or 21%.

Is that a good way to figure this out? Is it 12% chance of hitting a set on the flop?

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it. Also, sorry about the posts. I'm at work and trying to hide, haha.

pkrfce9

ya, 12% or 7.5:1 against is a good approximation. don't just stop there, though. also try to figure out how much you can make if you hit. if mr tighty can't let go of AA, then you know when you hit your set he's willing to get all-in against you. also, if mr loosey goosey has shown a willingness to bluff all-in, this is also great when you flop a set.

if you are just starting out, prepare yourself for bad beats and misreads. play at stakes where it won't bother you to lose 200xBB when your aces are cracked by 52o. be comfortable getting all in with bottom set even though you could be up against a better set when there are draws out there. focus on learning how different styles of players play from different positions. try to put people on ranges then use tools afterwards to see how your hand plays against those ranges. yes, sometimes you get your money in behind but you are playing against the range, not the specific hand.

good luck.

JimmyHo

adpro;161518 wroteTotal number of players : 10

Seat 1: GutShot4Me ( $5.01 USD )
Seat 2: jr_manpoker ( $2 USD )
Seat 3: tadder222 ( $7.59 USD )
Seat 4: adprocas ( $6.97 USD )
Seat 5: rexpantera ( $2 USD )
Seat 6: sharkbait300 ( $6.94 USD )
Seat 7: javividrio ( $4.76 USD )
Seat 8: Daimon01 ( $2.71 USD )
Seat 9: Ang3lofDarkX ( $4.23 USD )
Seat 10: mihay_83 ( $5 USD )

GutShot4Me posts small blind [$0.02 USD].
jr_manpoker posts big blind [$0.04 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to adprocas [ 4h 4c ]
tadder222 raises [$0.14 USD]
adprocas folds
rexpantera folds
sharkbait300 folds
javividrio raises [$0.48 USD]
Daimon01 folds
Ang3lofDarkX calls [$0.48 USD]
mihay_83 folds
GutShot4Me folds
jr_manpoker folds
tadder222 calls [$0.34 USD]

A more simplified approach. You have approx. 1 in 8 chance to hit trips on the flop. If it will cost me less than 1/10 of my stack to call the raise, I will do it (around $0.70 in your case). This assumes the player raising has me covered, which he does, and will likely pay me off if I hit my trips. If he raises to $0.14 but only has a small stack behind, then its not worth calling. Are any of the players behind know to make big reraises (also a consideration). Are there any small stacks that may push as well? After the re-raise to $0.48, still less than 1/10 of my stack and I also have three other players in the hand, a guaranteed call. Although the raises are huge relative to the blinds, its all relative to the starting stacks and potential payoff.

pkrfce9

pokerJAH;161532 wroteIf it will cost me less than 1/10 of my stack to call the raise, I will do it

good one, jimmy. i see you reordered the seats, too. lol.

i would extend this a bit. HU, you want it to be much less than 1/10, prob closer to 1/20 to compensate for the cases you get nailed set over set and also the times you get no action for whatever reason. multi-way, it is a bit trickier but you can simplify by estimating how much you can win vs how much you have to call. say there's already 1.50 in the pot, it costs you .34 to call and you think you can theoretically win a total of 5.00 if you hit. bingo, you are getting about 16:1 on your call so go for it!

adpro

pkrfce9;161536 wrotegood one, jimmy. i see you reordered the seats, too. lol.

i would extend this a bit. HU, you want it to be much less than 1/10, prob closer to 1/20 to compensate for the cases you get nailed set over set and also the times you get no action for whatever reason. multi-way, it is a bit trickier but you can simplify by estimating how much you can win vs how much you have to call. say there's already 1.50 in the pot, it costs you .34 to call and you think you can theoretically win a total of 5.00 if you hit. bingo, you are getting about 16:1 on your call so go for it!

Thanks for the advice. I will have to think about all of this next time a similar situation comes up. I have been having troubles with my pocket pairs lately. I love them but never seem to get to play them when at a really loose table, so I'll take all of this into consideration when a pre-flop raise comes in.

Also, I have no idea why the seats were all mixed up. Is that normal for party poker? I just started playing there. All of the hand history is like that. Wierd. Anyone notice this too?

BBC Z

If he raises to $0.14 but only has a small stack behind, then its not worth calling

Do you consider that it's liklier that you'll get the small stack all-in when you hit? On top of that, winning the 'smaller' pot will increase your EV for future hands by way of giving you a larger working stack in future pots.

JimmyHo

BBC Z;161540 wroteDo you consider that it's liklier that you'll get the small stack all-in when you hit? On top of that, winning the 'smaller' pot will increase your EV for future hands by way of giving you a larger working stack in future pots.

it really depends on the stack size, the flop and if there are other players in the hand (or left to act). In a live situation, you just know when a guy is going to push his last chips in the middle when he has just raised a significant amount of his stack pre-flop. Especially if he has been bleeding chips.

JimmyHo

pkrfce9;161536 wroteHU, you want it to be much less than 1/10, prob closer to 1/20 to compensate for the cases you get nailed set over set

this is just a general rule of thumb for me; personally, I don't worry about set over set too much.

pkrfce9

pokerJAH;161543 wrotethis is just a general rule of thumb for me; personally, I don't worry about set over set too much.

lol and IF you get more than 10:1 (on average) it doesn't matter!