Stupid play, or good decision?

Graham

Alright, so I flopped the nuts, but it was a very drawy board. In this situation do you think its best to slow play the nuts, or try and get all the money in on the flop? Discuss.

Note, this is like my 4th hand at this table, so no reads.

Full Tilt Poker Game #7419829645: Table Wilkinson (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 0:52:48 ET - 2008/07/29
Seat 1: obv ($262.85)
Seat 2: brbgraham ($79)
Seat 3: MADGREEK614 ($337.60)
Seat 4: yquiet ($97.50)
Seat 5: roundedout ($60)
Seat 6: Ed Longshanks ($50)
brbgraham posts the small blind of $0.50
MADGREEK614 posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to brbgraham [Js Ah Qh Ad]
yquiet folds
roundedout folds
Ed Longshanks folds
obv raises to $3.50
brbgraham calls $3
MADGREEK614 calls $2.50
*** FLOP *** [As Qc 6c]
brbgraham checks
MADGREEK614 checks
obv bets $9

Do you jam here, or try and hope for a crappy turn then check raise?

Results in white:
brbgraham raises to $37.50
MADGREEK614 has 15 seconds left to act
MADGREEK614 folds
obv has 15 seconds left to act
obv raises to $123
brbgraham calls $38, and is all in
obv shows [Ac 6d 6h 9c]
brbgraham shows [Js Ah Qh Ad]
Uncalled bet of $47.50 returned to obv
*** TURN *** [As Qc 6c] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [As Qc 6c Kd] [8s]
obv shows three of a kind, Sixes
brbgraham shows three of a kind, Aces
brbgraham wins the pot ($158.50) with three of a kind, Aces
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $161.50 | Rake $3
Board: [As Qc 6c Kd 8s]
Seat 1: obv (button) showed [Ac 6d 6h 9c] and lost with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 2: brbgraham (small blind) showed [Js Ah Qh Ad] and won ($158.50) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 3: MADGREEK614 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: yquiet didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: roundedout didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Ed Longshanks didn't bet (folded)

DrTyore

You have to bet that board to protect your hand IMO

It's got a flush draw and a straight draw out there.... you can actually be a dog in this hand, but also, if the guy has a hand like two pair or a set, a bad card is not only going to make you nervous about your hand, but also cool any action you may get now.

Mark

Wetts1012

Graham - based on your previous hand posts I would expect a reraise PF with this hand? Doesnt make sense that you would want to smallball here.

You got the desired result either way, so WD.

Graham

Wetts1012;159600 wroteGraham - based on your previous hand posts I would expect a reraise PF with this hand? Doesnt make sense that you would want to smallball here.

You got the desired result either way, so WD.

I actually think I am improving my game thanks to some of your feedback. Also, I spent about 4 hours watching PLO training videos on Real Poker Training (shameless plug) on the weekend, so I think this is actually helping big time. The PLO instructor (David Eisenstein) from the videos gives a lot of good advice, and I am actually tightening up BIGTIME on my starting hand selection. Also, he says raising pre-flop is pointless (esp. with AAXX) as all you really have is a pair of aces. By limping with this hand, it disguises it against a lot of really bad players. I know some of my past HH have been awful, but I really am trying to improve by posting them here. I appreciate all your feedback regardless of how negative it is.

With this particular hand, I think I over played it a little, because I didn't have much of a redraw, unless the board paired. There were many cards that would have my hand beat on the turn or the river, but like Mark said, I was trying to protect it here, as from the limited hands I had seen with the opponent, he was playing very LAG. Fortunately no club came, and I was good, but he could have just as easily been on straight and flush draws which would have made my play more dangerous.

westside8

I think I like re-raising preflop here...but in this spot, just jam - too many cards can come on the turn to kill your action or cause you to bite your nails.

DrTyore

IMO

Cash game - call

Tourney - push

EDIT - Pre-flop that is...

Mark

pkrfce9

mark, jamming PF is not possible (without some help from your opponents)

CR jamming on the flop is not possible, so i don't like going for the CR here.

i would lead out on the flop and hope to be able to re-raise jam. you want the money in now with what is undoubtedly the best hand and has re-draws if someone draws out anyway. what's the worst hand you can be against? something like Kc Jc Ts 9s? you are still a slight favourite against that. get the money in ASAP, cause he's not always going to have the worst possible hand against you. you don't know what cards will cause him to shut down (or make it hard for you to call)...

training is a great idea but i think you have misunderstood some of your training. you have a lot more than just AAxx PF, you have a premium hand. if there is a chance you can get the bulk of your stack in PF, i would go for the re-raise and the re-re-raise push.

Graham

pkrfce9;159650 wrotetraining is a great idea but i think you have misunderstood some of your training. you have a lot more than just AAxx PF, you have a premium hand. if there is a chance you can get the bulk of your stack in PF, i would go for the re-raise and the re-re-raise push.

Very true... Its gonna take some trial and error to work out these kinks, but thanks everyone for the advice.

DrTyore

pkrfce9;159650 wrotemark, jamming PF is not possible (without some help from your opponents)

CR jamming on the flop is not possible, so i don't like going for the CR here.

i would lead out on the flop and hope to be able to re-raise jam. you want the money in now with what is undoubtedly the best hand and has re-draws if someone draws out anyway. what's the worst hand you can be against? something like Kc Jc Ts 9s? you are still a slight favourite against that. get the money in ASAP, cause he's not always going to have the worst possible hand against you. you don't know what cards will cause him to shut down (or make it hard for you to call)...

training is a great idea but i think you have misunderstood some of your training. you have a lot more than just AAxx PF, you have a premium hand. if there is a chance you can get the bulk of your stack in PF, i would go for the re-raise and the re-re-raise push.

I'm aware that jamming isn't possible without help in PLOM, but he had a chance to re-raise here, and didn't. I was saying I like to do that with AAxx in PLOM (even a 2x suited one sometimes) cash games, but in a MTT / SNG, I'm re-raising 100%

As for the flop, hero has the current nuts, but if villain has a hand like say, KcJc10s9s, he is actually a favorite (3xK, 3xJ, 3x10, 7xclubs, as well as two runner draws, so let's add another two outs there).

Mark

BBC Z

Also, he says raising pre-flop is pointless (esp. with AAXX) as all you really have is a pair of aces

I probably would have hit stop on the video as soon as I heard that. You can pretty much say that any hand you are ever dealt is 'really just four cards'.

The point in Omaha is to create large pots when you have good hands in position and play small ones when you aren't.

Also, slowplaying in a pot limit game is wrong. By not increasing the max bet on the flop you limit your winnings on the turn/riv. So regardless of how strong your hand is, if you want to win a big pot you need to be betting.

As for the flop, hero has the current nuts, but if villain has a hand like say, KcJc10s9s, he is actually a favorite (3xK, 3xJ, 3x10, 7xclubs, as well as two runner draws, so let's add another two outs there).

Yes in the worst case scenario, but I'm not sure how you'd ever learn that unless he tables his hand out of turn.

JimmyHo

Graham;159604 wroteReal Poker Training

worth the money? too bad they don't let you see the video listing before becoming a member.

Graham

BBC Z;159694 wroteThe point in Omaha is to create large pots when you have good hands in position and play small ones when you aren't.

True, but I think that also depends on how the other players are playing at your table. I used to raise a lot when I was playing, and I would get caught up in many more tough situations and lose most of the coin tosses. Since I have started keeping pots smaller and waiting till I have the nuts with redraws to any better nut draws before really becoming aggressive, I have noticed that I have been winning much more consistently.

I like disguising my hands more, because it makes it very difficult for my opponents to have any idea where I stand. But hey, thats just what has been working for me.

You are definitely right though here, I should have raised pre-flop and what they discussed in the video was more just about naked aces, not aces with a potential flush and straight draw.

Graham

pokerJAH;159704 wroteworth the money? too bad they don't let you see the video listing before becoming a member.

To be completely honest, Ryan Fisler (one of the instructors/owners) gave me a free trial so that I could write a review for them on my other site, so I am not spending anything. Though, I have done a lot of research on the different training sites, and it seems that they have the largest (or at least 2nd largest) collection of Omaha videos with 18.

I have watched a ton of their Holdem videos also, the ones by David Williams are pretty good, but there are a ton there to choose from.

I am going to write a proper review of them on my other site shortly, but for $25/month (or $150 for the whole year which works out to $12.xx) I would say it is definitely worth it for me, even if I was paying. Since watching them, I have made much more than that, and a lot of it I think is as a result of watching the videos.

You can see one of the sample vids here:
http://www.bankrollboost.com/poker/training/

I have looked at some of the other training sites like cardrunners and pokerxfactor and most of them have initiation fees which are higher than a whole year with RPT. I am sure their videos are great, but they also didn't have a good collection of Omaha videos, which is more what I was interested in.

Hope that helps.

Graham

BBC Z

True, but I think that also depends on how the other players are playing at your table. I used to raise a lot when I was playing, and I would get caught up in many more tough situations and lose most of the coin tosses. Since I have started keeping pots smaller and waiting till I have the nuts with redraws to any better nut draws before really becoming aggressive, I have noticed that I have been winning much more consistently.

Variance and EV are different concepts.

I like disguising my hands more

From what I can tell, you already play 75% of your hands.. I wouldnt worry about disguising anything.

Graham

BBC Z;159738 wroteFrom what I can tell, you already play 75% of your hands.. I wouldnt worry about disguising anything.

That was before... I'm changing ;)