Folding Sets on the Flop

Wetts1012

I remember a hand very clearly from a time when I first started playing Poker about 5 years ago.

I was at a club tournament in Toronto and was dealt 88 in one of the blinds. It was relatively early on. An MP player who I respected standard raised PF and I called. The Flop came Qd/10x/8d. He ends up shoving my 3bet and I fold face up.

I was new to poker and basically the entire table informed me that I was never to fold a set on the flop. Like a child learning to talk - this is all I have ever remembered about hitting sets.

Which leads me to an interesting spot last night.

6 handed, I call a standard raise from the SB with 55 - against from a player whos game I respect. It is the second blind level, but I have chipped down about 20% of my starting stack.

I lead for pot on a Js7s5s flop. He raises basically committing both of us.

I know this player doesnt make this move if he's not huge.
Everything points to being beat. Then I remember that day from long ago - and push.

So my question - Is it ever right to fold a set on the flop (please no tournament bubble responses)? What are these situations?

JimmyHo

three spades on a flop is likely a different story; its very hard to fold trips on any flop, very hard. Even if you are behind, you will likely always have outs (for the boat, or quads) which is likely the best hand. On a different board, I'm not folding trips, period.

BigChrisEl

For me it depends on the number chips I have, how big the pot is and the player. Of course how close it is to the money matters as well.

Using the Ching Hill structure if I had 600-700 chips and the blinds were 10-20, I think I would ship it in.

I find it better to go broke to give myself a chance of winning then to hang on with a smaller stack to go broke at a later level.

Bad_Beat46

Had 44 and flop came 4d 9d jd

Player with more chips then me pushes all in after flop.

$500 in pot preflop + his $1500 bet = $2000

I have about $1000 left so 2-1 on the pot odds.

I figured he hit flush on flop so now the decision is based on pot odds, right?

Outs?
6 outs from the board possible pairs
1 out for quads

so 7 outs with 2 cards to come = 28%+3 more outs if the turn doesn't hit

Lets say 3-1 odds for me to win and pot odds 2-1. hmmm, maybe a bad call but there is still possibility he doesn't even have the flush???

Very hard decision. Anyways, I call and he flips over flush and I miss turn and river and I am out.

_obv_

you cant fold in that spot... why cant he have AJ/KJ/QJ with a spade, QQ/KK/AA with or without a spade... even if he has a flush you dont have terrible equity and there are lots of hands he can have that you are ahead of

Wetts1012

_obv_;157167 wroteyou cant fold in that spot... why cant he have AJ/KJ/QJ with a spade, QQ/KK/AA with or without a spade... even if he has a flush you dont have terrible equity and there are lots of hands he can have that you are ahead of

So is there ever a situation - in a regular tournament - where folding a set on the flop could be considered?

Obv. much easier decision on the turn/riv on a 4 flush/str8 board.

pkrfce9

Wetts1012;157160 wroteSo my question - Is it ever right to fold a set on the flop (please no tournament bubble responses)? What are these situations?

in a tourney where the stacks are not deep (i.e. ching hill) the answer is almost always 'no!'

in a cash game, the answer is usually 'no!'

you have to have a very coordinated board and a very good read on your opponent to even consider a fold. after all, they could be making the same move with an overpair, 2 ppppprrrrrrr, worse set (when you have top or middle set), TPTK or a draw. even when you are behind a straight or flush, you have so many outs it could be worth it to try to draw out yourself (again, depends on depth of stacks). only when you have bottom set would you worry about a higher set and most guys will tell you that is baaaaaaaad poker.

in the past few weeks, i have flopped top set 3 times and lost to 2 made straights (one with 63s, the other 76o) and the other to a guy drawing to an open-ended SF draw. with 65s. if i had won these, i'd have about 3k more in my pockets. do i feel bad? ya. would i play them differently? no.

STR82ACE

Okay, but add something different to the example.

Three players see the flop. You're middle position behind BB, who's game you respect, but known to make moves when called for, and LP is a fairly new player you've only been in hands with a couple of times but know to be abit loose and aggressive.

BB checks, you lead out with top set for 3/4 pot. LP 3bet raises you. BB then pushes, and if called, would mean busting out both players. Classic squeeze play, but the decision is now for ALL your chips with another player behind you.

Wetts1012

STR82ACE;157181 wroteOkay, but add something different to the example.

Three players see the flop. You're middle position behind BB, who's game you respect, but known to make moves when called for, and LP is a fairly new player you've only been in hands with a couple of times but know to be abit loose and aggressive.

BB checks, you lead out with top set for 3/4 pot. LP 3bet raises you. BB then pushes, and if called, would mean busting out both players. Classic squeeze play, but the decision is now for ALL your chips with another player behind you.

I am far less likely to even consider a fold in that situation for 2 reasons.

1) Top set is a much different situation than bottom set (especially when there's action PF and paint on the flop).

2) The pot is much sicker 3 way, with all the money in. I don't think that I could resist that equity given that I don't have to worry about drawing to quads.

_obv_

Wetts1012;157168 wroteSo is there ever a situation - in a regular tournament - where folding a set on the flop could be considered?

without reads in a heads up pot...no... to fold you would need to know that your opponent was bad enough that they would only ever be shoving a flush on a monotone flop and then you would need to be getting worse than 2:1 odds to call on the shove

i guess you could fold a set if you are really really deep and have bottom set on a really dry flop after a few raises and reraises

[deleted]

pokerJAH;157162 wrotethree spades on a flop is likely a different story; its very hard to fold trips on any flop, very hard. Even if you are behind, you will likely always have outs (for the boat, or quads) which is likely the best hand. On a different board, I'm not folding trips, period.

We're talking about a set not trips. Big difference obviously.

adpro

I say he has a pair. JJ, QQ, KK or AA. He could have AK suited, but probably not spades.

You have to push either way. I think the worst thing you will see here is set against set, before the turn or the river of course.

He probably has a spade and at least top pair. I'm thinking he's pushing to try to push you off of this hand. He has 9 outs to the flush (maybe he is on the nut flush draw) and a pair (could be as high as aces). Hell, I have seen a lot of people raise with AJos whos game I respected.

Either way, push here and if you lose, just remember you want to be in similar situations because you will win most of the time. You want other people to give you all of their money without having to figure out how to take it.

literation

Wetts1012;157160 wroteSo my question - Is it ever right to fold a set on the flop (please no tournament bubble responses)? What are these situations?

I remember reading this story but it was a turn decision, 6th place.
"If he had raised me on the flop, I probably would’ve gone broke."
What's My Line? -- Mike Matusow - Poker News - CardPlayer.com

I also remember another CP cash game tale, during which there was reference to the hero in past 'correctly folding middle set to me on the flop'. Um...they must have been very deep?

stpboy

Wetts1012;157160 wrote
So my question - Is it ever right to fold a set on the flop (please no tournament bubble responses)? What are these situations?

Yes, in Omaha.

No seriously, as previously stated I think you need to put your opponent on a pretty tight range of hands and just trust when that card comes out that regardless of what you have, you need to trust your read.

An example might be when tighty limps in UTG, you raise from MP with 99. Folded around to you and Tighty min raises you. You call and see a Flop of AK9 rainbow. He checks the flop to you. You bet, he min-raises again. What do you do?

I think it's clear. I would fold.

stp

P.s. I had a hand at one of the Lucky Lou tournaments here in KW where it was 3 handed, all limped preflop. Flop 459 rainbow. I had set of fours, dude had set of fives. I bet the flop, he raised me, I just called and honestly put him on 55. Lucklily I hit quads on the turn.....

Anyway, my point is that you can see them if you look hard enough.

compuease

stpboy;174781 wrote An example might be when tighty limps in UTG, you raise from MP with 99. Folded around to you and Tighty min raises you. You call and see a Flop of AK9 rainbow. He checks the flop to you. You bet, he min-raises again. What do you do?

I think it's clear. I would fold.

stp

I remember that hand, good fold, I had a set of
A's and a set of K's.... :)

blackmagicz

Wetts1012;157160 wroteI remember a hand very clearly from a time when I first started playing Poker about 5 years ago.

I was at a club tournament in Toronto and was dealt 88 in one of the blinds. It was relatively early on. An MP player who I respected standard raised PF and I called. The Flop came Qd/10x/8d. He ends up shoving my 3bet and I fold face up.

I was new to poker and basically the entire table informed me that I was never to fold a set on the flop. Like a child learning to talk - this is all I have ever remembered about hitting sets.

Which leads me to an interesting spot last night.

6 handed, I call a standard raise from the SB with 55 - against from a player whos game I respect. It is the second blind level, but I have chipped down about 20% of my starting stack.

I lead for pot on a Js7s5s flop. He raises basically committing both of us.

I know this player doesnt make this move if he's not huge.
Everything points to being beat. Then I remember that day from long ago - and push.

So my question - Is it ever right to fold a set on the flop (please no tournament bubble responses)? What are these situations?

I think the variables defined here are too generic to make an accurate deduction. You have not defined huge...is huge the nut flush or is huge, has a hand could be drawing to the nut flush.

In this situation I would like to know the range you put on the preflop raiser. What kind of hands does he normally come in with and is he making a move because he has position.

When you can identify roughly what cards Villian would open with you would be able to narrow down his hand holding on the flop.

In this situation specifically I try to keep the pot controlled, maybe check calling the flop and then hoping to get a checked turn, and check call river. Its not a cash game so I don't wish to go broke so early and with such a highly co-ordinated board.

On a rainbow board I go broke with sets all the time. Its so hard sometimes to figure out if the villian is betting 2 pair or top set because most times they can't figure out what you have either.....lol.

Hobbes

JohnnyRoth;174825 wroteI would say no. The only time when you should consider folding with a set is when there is a flush draw on the board.

Never against a flush draw. You are about a 3-1 fav here.

Also if you flop a full house...but the other pair is higher than your set. Example. You have JJ flop is J A A. You have to consider pocket aces.

Seeing monsters under the bed? In holdem without a fantastic read you cannot fold an boat. Now if it were Omaha, underboat is a fairly easy fold if there is a lot of action.

13CARDS

Deleted

actyper

Hobbes;174843 wrote Seeing monsters under the bed? In holdem without a fantastic read you cannot fold an boat. Now if it were Omaha, underboat is a fairly easy fold if there is a lot of action.

Thats a Jennifer Tilly read. Consider the quad lol

BBC Z

I love the fact that a thread as useless as when to fold a set on the flop can get 20+comments, but a thread that involves real poker decision making that might actually improve you guys as players can't get past 7.