Raise bigger pre-flop?

Graham

What could I have done differently here? Any thoughts?

PokerStars Game #16386151079: Tournament #82974918, 500FPP Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/03/31 - 12:21:31 (ET)
Table '82974918 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: roo_400 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: Jolanthe (1500 in chips)
Seat 3: Lefty McDog (1500 in chips)
Seat 4: John Henry (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: TraumaDog (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: closemaster (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: mr.dex (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: elvis183 (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: kaejones (1500 in chips)
Jolanthe: posts small blind 10
Lefty McDog: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to closemaster [Js Jd]
John Henry: folds
TraumaDog: calls 20
closemaster: raises 100 to 120
mr.dex: folds
elvis183: folds
kaejones: folds
roo_400: folds
Jolanthe: folds
Lefty McDog: calls 100
TraumaDog: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [Th 7d 6h]
Lefty McDog: checks
TraumaDog: checks
closemaster: bets 320
Lefty McDog: folds
TraumaDog: calls 320
*** TURN *** [Th 7d 6h] [4h]
TraumaDog: checks
closemaster: checks
*** RIVER *** [Th 7d 6h 4h] [6s]
TraumaDog: bets 100
closemaster: calls 100
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TraumaDog: shows [7h Kh] (a flush, King high)
closemaster: mucks hand
TraumaDog collected 1210 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1210 | Rake 0
Board [Th 7d 6h 4h 6s]
Seat 1: roo_400 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Jolanthe (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Lefty McDog (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: John Henry folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TraumaDog showed [7h Kh] and won (1210) with a flush, King high
Seat 6: closemaster mucked [Js Jd]
Seat 7: mr.dex folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: elvis183 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: kaejones folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Voodoo

Nothing..

You're in a hand with a guy that calls a raise with K7 (Yeah sure its soooted) and then he checks the 2nd nut flush on the turn and only bets 100 on the river, that guy should be on your friends list.

Graham

:D

Just got him back ;)

PokerStars Game #16386537676: Tournament #82974918, 500FPP Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/03/31 - 12:41:38 (ET)
Table '82974918 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: Jolanthe (2630 in chips)
Seat 5: TraumaDog (1915 in chips)
Seat 6: closemaster (3935 in chips)
Seat 7: mr.dex (3440 in chips)
Seat 8: elvis183 (1580 in chips)
mr.dex: posts small blind 75
elvis183: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to closemaster [Ah Ad]
Jolanthe: folds
TraumaDog: raises 150 to 300
closemaster: raises 900 to 1200
mr.dex: folds
elvis183: folds
TraumaDog: calls 900
*** FLOP *** [Jc 8d Js]
TraumaDog: bets 150
closemaster: raises 750 to 900
TraumaDog: calls 565 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Jc 8d Js] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 8d Js 3c] [Qh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TraumaDog: shows [As Kh] (a pair of Jacks)
closemaster: shows [Ah Ad] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
closemaster collected 4055 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4055 | Rake 0
Board [Jc 8d Js 3c Qh]
Seat 2: Jolanthe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TraumaDog showed [As Kh] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 6: closemaster (button) showed [Ah Ad] and won (4055) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 7: mr.dex (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: elvis183 (big blind) folded before Flop

cadillac

Voodoo;146233 wroteNothing..

You're in a hand with a guy that calls a raise with K7 (Yeah sure its soooted) and then he checks the 2nd nut flush on the turn and only bets 100 on the river, that guy should be on your friends list.

QFTMFT

Quoted For The Mother F@$&ing Truth

Davis08

cadillac;146238 wroteQFTMFT

Quoted For The Mother F@$&ing Truth

lol i was thinking the same thing..

m_dolens

the only thing you can do here is realize that the blinds are still low and people are more likely to call you with crap (i.e. K7 suited). moreover, it's the first hand (i'm assuming since everyone has 1500 in chips still). therefore, i'd prefer to undervalue my medium pair (yes i feel jacks are medium) and bet the standard three times the BB preflop as opposed to betting even more than you originally did. this is a tournament and therefore i don't want to go broke on the first hand even with my pocket pair/over pair (which seems to happen to pocket jacks often enough).

the point is, it pretty much doesn't matter (more or less) how much you bet/raise in a scenario as this because there could be a donk who is going to call anything (especially on the first hand). therefore, play like you would normally (i.e. standard bet/raises) for two reasons:
1) you're not risking more money to win minimum blinds (i.e. betting 120+ to win 30)
2) you're not risking your whole tourney (generally speaking) on the first hand with a medium pocket pair.

that is, play JJ like it's 77 and not like it's AA/KK and you'll do fine.

ElElliott

Voodoo;146233 wroteNothing..

You're in a hand with a guy that calls a raise with K7 (Yeah sure its soooted) and then he checks the 2nd nut flush on the turn and only bets 100 on the river, that guy should be on your friends list.

I agree. Not much more you could have done.

About the $100 bet on the river though....how much more should the villian have bet? Can anyone call much more on a board with a flush, striaght & a pair?

Seems like close to the max he'd get paid. Much more and the opponent would fold.

m_dolens

Graham;146237 wrote:D

Just got him back ;)

PokerStars Game #16386537676: Tournament #82974918, 500FPP Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/03/31 - 12:41:38 (ET)
Table '82974918 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: Jolanthe (2630 in chips)
Seat 5: TraumaDog (1915 in chips)
Seat 6: closemaster (3935 in chips)
Seat 7: mr.dex (3440 in chips)
Seat 8: elvis183 (1580 in chips)
mr.dex: posts small blind 75
elvis183: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to closemaster [Ah Ad]
Jolanthe: folds
TraumaDog: raises 150 to 300
closemaster: raises 900 to 1200
mr.dex: folds
elvis183: folds
TraumaDog: calls 900
*** FLOP *** [Jc 8d Js]
TraumaDog: bets 150
closemaster: raises 750 to 900
TraumaDog: calls 565 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Jc 8d Js] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 8d Js 3c] [Qh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TraumaDog: shows [As Kh] (a pair of Jacks)
closemaster: shows [Ah Ad] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
closemaster collected 4055 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4055 | Rake 0
Board [Jc 8d Js 3c Qh]
Seat 2: Jolanthe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TraumaDog showed [As Kh] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 6: closemaster (button) showed [Ah Ad] and won (4055) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 7: mr.dex (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: elvis183 (big blind) folded before Flop

misses flop with AK and still calls the all in - this guy is definitely friends list worthy ;)

Graham

m_dolens;146242 wrotethe only thing you can do here is realize that the blinds are still low and people are more likely to call you with crap (i.e. K7 suited). moreover, it's the first hand (i'm assuming since everyone has 1500 in chips still). therefore, i'd prefer to undervalue my medium pair (yes i feel jacks are medium) and bet the standard three times the BB preflop as opposed to betting even more than you originally did. this is a tournament and therefore i don't want to go broke on the first hand even with my pocket pair/over pair (which seems to happen to pocket jacks often enough).

the point is, it pretty much doesn't matter (more or less) how much you bet/raise in a scenario as this because there could be a donk who is going to call anything (especially on the first hand). therefore, play like you would normally (i.e. standard bet/raises) for two reasons:
1) you're not risking more money to win minimum blinds (i.e. betting 120+ to win 30)
2) you're not risking your whole tourney (generally speaking) on the first hand with a medium pocket pair.

that is, play JJ like it's 77 and not like it's AA/KK and you'll do fine.

Thanks... nice analysis!

Pantsonfire

I probably just call with JJ in a situation like this. I might reraise 3x if I feel it would stop any further action behind me. Early in a tourney like a FPP one at Stars, you are going to get all kinds of callers for your pf raise. It's very similar to a low dollar rebuy tourney. JJ is going to get run down a lot and you are simply going to have to play it for set value. The only way I am going broke with this hand at this blind level is if I am facing a raise against one other player and I am the only one left in the pot. I will push and expect to see and under pair often enough to make this a good value play.

JJ early I play passively, call pr, bet a flop like that once and keep the pot small. Against multiple opponents I get out. And I see you skewered him a few hands later. You have to do some math and figure how more you could have taken from him if you hadn't put so many chips into the pot that first hand.