Chop Question - What would you do?

blackmagicz

Here is the scenario

300 - buy in freeze out with optional 150 rebuy (7500 to start, rebuy is 5000 chips)

20 people total, paying top 4 - 4000,2000,700,300

I stake someone in the tourney so I am in for 600 total we get down to the final 4 I have about 45K in chips and chip leader has over 100K the other 2 stacks are comparable (35-50K) to my stack.

The shorter stack by about 5K asks for a deal.

First - 3000
2,3,4 - 1100
Dealer - 500 (tip)

Did I make a good decision. The blinds were 1500-3000 at this point and I had just doubled up as I was getting blinded down. The chip leader was a good player but he basically had 50K donated to him in an AK vs A10 hand when an A hit the flop and A10 basically said "I know I am behind but I call anyways"

The other 2 players were decent but I was stealing a lot from them but took a 20K hit earlier in the final table when my 7s went up against AJ.

Now the reason why I took the deal was because technically I was in for 600 already and that would mean I would have to finish at least 3rd to make my money back. I do believe I was a better player than at least 2 of the people at the table but it was getting to the point of shove or fold poker so I would be really chancing 3rd place to possibly a race situation.

Any thoughts??

Graham

Okay, I don't play a lot of live tournaments, but isn't 500 an excessively large tip for the dealer? Don't they get paid hourly on top of that? That is more than 4th place should have paid. Other than that, it seems like a decent deal. If possible it would have been better to get 1st to take a little less and add more juice to the other 3, but since 1st didn't suggest the deal, I guess thats pretty standard.

m_dolens

mistake number one:
ok you staked someone and therefore you're in the tournament for $600. staking someone should not be included as part of your "buy-in" to a tournament. if you want to stake someone then i personally feel like you have to consider it as separate from your buy-in and play accordingly. otherwise you'll risk losing more money in the long run because you are playing like you're buying in for double everyone else and trying to make up that difference (unless the stake-ee makes the payout obviously). i just feel like it's a negative right off the bat if you're going to keep that in the back of your mind while you play.

mistake number two:
$500 dealer tip? perhaps i'm out of the loop but that seems a little high imho.

mistake number three:
BB was 3000, you had 45k-ish. i don't think it's push/fold poker yet (although i guess it depends on blind times and the next level of blinds, but even still). not to mention, you feel like you're better than two out of the three opponents left! no deal, my friend, no deal.

why settle for the same money that 4th is making when you're a slight chip leader over them AND you feel like you can beat the majority of players out there AND you're only a 2:1 underdog to chip leader (which means one double up and you're a 2:1 in the lead, or tied for the lead if you knock out someone else).

actyper

Math isn't right, somethings wrong.

Tip is disgusting

BBC Z

What time can I show up to deal the next tourney? $500/day I'll quit my day job.

_obv_

Great deal for the chips leader and the dealer

Terrible deal for the other 3 players

Also... being concerned about making your money back is a sign that is is too high a buyin for you to be playing.

blackmagicz

Further clarification

There were 3 dealers working that night on rotation so it was split amongst them. Plus their pay is tip only (its an underground club)

After thinking about it further I think I should have gone with maybe 800 guarentee and then maybe leave 1000 in the middle to play for (sorta like the way they do it online).

I think the problem was the two other players (that were mid stacks with me) were intimidated by the chip leader which lead to the deal discussion. I do have to say though in my tourney history anyone who has not accepted a deal has usually been the next person eliminated, I don't know if it is karma or something but it always happens whenever I am involved in deal discussions at the final table...lol

As for the buy in being too much, not at all, I just hate working for 5-6 hours and having nothing to show for it at the end especially when it is 230am and I have to be at work the next day. One of the reasons why I like cash games more than tournies...

Thanks for the input guys I appreciate it. This is the second final table in less than a week (I don't normally play many tournies anymore) so the added lesson in deal making and psychology helps a lot.

Graham

Aw man... there were 3 dealers! So I spent all that time making this for nothing?

Hehehehe...

_obv_

blackmagicz;144638 wrote
I think the problem was the two other players (that were mid stacks with me) were intimidated by the chip leader which lead to the deal discussion. I do have to say though in my tourney history anyone who has not accepted a deal has usually been the next person eliminated, I don't know if it is karma or something but it always happens whenever I am involved in deal discussions at the final table...lol

If the others are intimidated and want to make a deal then ask for more than them... it never hurts to ask for more than you would be willing to take from a deal... worst that can happen is they say no and you lower your offer.

If others are playing scared you need to use that to your advantage by getting a better deal or by not dealing and exploiting them.

As for the buy in being too much, not at all, I just hate working for 5-6 hours and having nothing to show for it at the end especially when it is 230am and I have to be at work the next day. One of the reasons why I like cash games more than tournies...

So you are willing to decrease long term expected profits in order to increase short term profits?

blackmagicz

Graham;144642 wroteAw man... there were 3 dealers! So I spent all that time making this for nothing?

Hehehehe...

That was awesome....

wrote So you are willing to decrease long term expected profits in order to increase short term profits?

I just feel I have more of an edge in a cash game then in a tourney so any profit I can make in a tourney I am satisfied with. As many people know you can play a number of tournies and not cash at all.

actyper

blackmagicz;144622 wrote20 people total, paying top 4 - 4000,2000,700,300

First - 3000
2,3,4 - 1100
Dealer - 500 (tip)

7000 = 6800?

blackmagicz

Sorry 3200 to first....

Voodoo

A little tough without exact chip counts but assuming the following this is a basic Chip Chop.

Chip Counts
Leader 100K
You 45K
3rd 45K
4th 40K (you state low stack has about 5k less)

Total Chips in play (230K)
Prize Pool (7000)

Leader $3040
You $1370
3rd $1370
4th $1220

Each player tips the dealer(s) what they are comfortable with.

pkrfce9

you got screwed.

take out 5% for a tip, which is still fairly generous. using ICM, which should be a bit more accurate than a straight value per chip:

100k has ~2400 ev
50k has ~1600
45k has ~1500
35k has ~1200

sounds like the weaker guys feared the chip leader too much and you didn't drive much of a bargain. and no one wanted to look cheap to the dealers.

oops: i see voodoo posted his response while i was typing. i like the idea of people giving the dealers whatever they wish (even though that usually means the dealers gets screwed).

_obv_

Voodoo;144663 wroteA little tough without exact chip counts but assuming the following this is a basic Chip Chop.

Chip Counts
Leader 100K
You 45K
3rd 45K
4th 40K (you state low stack has about 5k less)

Total Chips in play (230K)
Prize Pool (7000)

Leader $3040
You $1370
3rd $1370
4th $1220

Each player tips the dealer(s) what they are comfortable with.

Also keep in mind chip chops favour the big stacks

blackmagicz

pkrfce9;144664 wroteyou got screwed.

take out 5% for a tip, which is still fairly generous. using ICM, which should be a bit more accurate than a straight value per chip:

100k has ~2400 ev
50k has ~1600
45k has ~1500
35k has ~1200

sounds like the weaker guys feared the chip leader too much and you didn't drive much of a bargain. and no one wanted to look cheap to the dealers.

oops: i see voodoo posted his response while i was typing. i like the idea of people giving the dealers whatever they wish (even though that usually means the dealers gets screwed).

Yeah you are correct I guess I just take tournies for granted and I will have to pay more attention to these parts of the end game. Like I said previously I was just content with my money back plus some profit. It is definitely interesting to see people's views on the situation. I am going to put a bunch of you guys on speed dial for my next final table decision ;)

Milo

Haven't been to as many bubble+ situations as some around here, but even I think this is a bad deal for you. And I cannot believe that the dealers were working gratis in the tourney. They get paid for tourneys where I play, anyway. So, even if you all agree to throw in for the dealers, you should have pushed for more based on your perceived equity vs. the two weakies. I'd have countered with the following (and been willing to negotiate, when they started bitching):
1 - $3,300
2 - $2,000
3 - $1,000
4 - $700

You throw a little more to the big stack to get him on board, nést pas?

Each player throws in equally for the dealers AS SOON AS they cash out.

BlondeFish

As soon as I saw your numbers and without having done any equity calculations, I thought that it was a terrible deal except for the chip leader. Using Voodoo's chip count assumptions, below are the fair values based on the Malmuth-Harville Formula or ICM:

Chip leader - $2,497
2 middle stacks - $1,540
Shortest stack - $1,422

Most players underestimate the chances that the current chip leader will not end up winning, forgetting that even a single double-up can easily switch the chip lead.

blackmagicz;144622 wroteFirst - 3000
2,3,4 - 1100
Dealer - 500 (tip)

Pantsonfire

Voodoo;144663 wroteA little tough without exact chip counts but assuming the following this is a basic Chip Chop.

Chip Counts
Leader 100K
You 45K
3rd 45K
4th 40K (you state low stack has about 5k less)

Total Chips in play (230K)
Prize Pool (7000)

Leader $3040
You $1370
3rd $1370
4th $1220

Each player tips the dealer(s) what they are comfortable with.

It's not that simple to just take number of chips and buy a piece of the prize pool. I don't have the math with me right now but I can respond back if somebody doesn't believe me or want's to know what I'm talking about.