M values are useless in short SnG?

BBC Z

So your M is the number of chips it costs you per orbit. Generally Accepted Poker Principles (GAPP) says M=5 red zone, M=10 yellow yadda.

Now, I haven't read Harrington in a few years so if I forgot something, let me know..

But, If I'm in a SnG with say 5 players left, 1000 chips and blinds totaling 100 per orbit.. Don't I need to adjust this number for the actual number of hands per orbit? At a full table, I have 10 hands for each value of M. At my table, I only have 5.

I believe this means that as the number of players decrease, the M levels identified for each zone INCREASE? M=5 at a full table is 50 hands. M=5 at my short table is 25. A 50% decrease. I expect each zone to increase by 50%.. Redzone 7.5 etc..

Now, that being said, when the table goes short I usually just play the players and figure out who to steal blinds from.. But maybe this helps with those borderline push/fold situations.

DataMn

First off.. what structure are you playing where the blinds add up to 100? 33/67?? ;-)

But, if this was the case your M would be 10 (1000/100). My thinking on it is that my pressure doesn't go up 50% because of the less number of hands per orbit - because the equal amount of pressure is being put on each of my opponents. The M is more to measure when the chip stack you have is good to make moves, when you have to tighten up, and when you need to make a move.

The other stat that Harrington mentions in his books (Q - the ratio between your chips and the average chip stack) is probably more important in this case. Assuming a starting table of 10 and a starting chip stack of 1500 you only have a Q of .33 - meaning you need to look to make a move to get up to the average fairly soon.

But, like you said, the more important factor at this point is playing what you know of the other players. If you can blind steal without risking your stack that will definitely help at this point. Some players will tighten up at 5 players. If you can find out who they are then you can take advantage, to help build your chip stack on the cheap.

cadillac

I agree.

M's as discussed in HOH lose their relavence in short handed play.

BlondeFish

BBC Z;139614 wroteGenerally Accepted Poker Principles (GAPP) ...
Now, I haven't read Harrington in a few years so if I forgot something, let me know..

:biggrin: I worked for a chartered accounting firm in a previous life and I remember GAAP - Generally Accepted Accounting Principles.

Since you haven't read Harrington's since 2006, he does advocate adjusting M for a short table in Volume II.
Effective M = (Basic M) * (Players left / 10)
In a five-handed table, your basic M is 10 (Yellow Zone), but your Effective M is only 5 (10 * 5/10) and you are in the Red Zone.

Just like cash game players should be aware of the how much more rake they're paying in a short table, tournament players should also be aware of how much more often they'll have to pay blinds in a short table. In a cash game, you can request a rake reduction or leave, but in a tournament, you can adjust your strategies based on Effective M and Q.

cadillac wroteM's as discussed in HOH lose their relavence in short handed play.

No, Effective M remains one of many important factors in "GAPP" and short-handed play.

BBC Z

I worked for a chartered accounting firm in a previous life and I remember GAAP - Generally Accepted Accounting Principles.

It was either GAPP or SLAPP (Sklanksy's Learnedly acceptable poker principals).

Thanks for the clarification BlondeFish.

ryanghall

M is essentially useless in SNGs. Don't use it. It is an MTT concept. The two are obviously very different because of the payout implications.

If you'd like to get better at knowing when to push in SNGs, you'll have to learn ICM (Independent Chip Modeling). It's not perfect either, but in most cases it's right.

You can buy a program called SNGPT (do a search and you'll find the site) for around $85 IIRC, or there might be a free version somewhere online now if you look. This is the best way to learn push/calling ranges late in SNGs.