Thread: Consequence of the Big Blind Ante

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  1. #31
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    What if we work backwards.
    Why was that rule even needed before?
    What was it indicating?

    I suggest it was explaining that the player with the larger stack gets the higher finish because that player was never at risk of elimination.

    Maybe the rule should have always said:
    ""In the event of multiple Players being eliminated during the same hand when prizing is to be decided by the order of elimination, ...if both Players are on the same table, the Player not at risk of elimination by the other at the start of the hand would receive the largest prize."

    That wording would cover both the old way (individual antes) and the new way (Big Blind Ante) and redefining the start of the hand would NOT be neccessary.

    All of the posts about changing the start of the hand really made me look at this in other ways. Thank you to everyone that posted!!!!

    Is that a better way to approach this???

  2. #32
    Sorry sir, I have 6 Aces! Card Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13CARDS View Post
    Is it possible to get consensus on this part, as a kind of Step 1 to sorting out the disagreement???

    If you removed Player 3 from the scenario in the OP and made it a heads-up pot between Player 1 and Player 2, and Player 2 ended up with the winning hand, Player 2 would eliminate Player 1. Definitively. You would not count the ante as part of his stack. There is no scenario, using the chipstacks, blinds and antes I described in the OP, that Player 1 could ever eliminate Player 2. If Player 1 ended up with the winning hand, Player 1 would "double up" and Player 2 would be left with 1,000 in chips.

    Can there be an arguement against this??
    This.

    Unlike the blinds, the BBA is considered dead money and therefore can not be part of a playerís stack. If itís not part of a live stack, and canít be used to keep you from being eliminated, how can it be used to enhance your finishing position?

    And since the TDA has still yet to make a decision on this, itís clearly not a simple answer.

    For me, the problem is with the BBA itself. While it speeds up the game and simplifies the action, it adds more variance and ambiguity to a structure that already has enough of that. Iíd much prefer to have traditional antes and a penalty to players who donít post in a timely manner. But thatís a different discussion.

  3. #33
    Administrator compuease's Avatar
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    My head hurts reading all that you folks are discussing, please continue, I have lots of aspirin.
    If someone doesn't hate you, you're a wimp... comp: circa 2012.. and now 2013 as well, quite likely continuing into 2014, Now confirmed as CONTINUING well into 2014. Ah, f'it, 2015's just more of the same..

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13CARDS View Post
    I suggest it was explaining that the player with the larger stack gets the higher finish because that player was never at risk of elimination.
    The player with the larger stack between the two players who both were just eliminated, "was never at risk of elimination"? That's self-contradictory. Ah, I see, you mean "was never at risk of elimination from the other eliminated player".

    Consider this: if instead of the hand with the eliminations playing out, the tournament had to come to an immediate halt for whatever reason, how would you rank those players? By stack size, since the players are not eliminated. In this case, P2 is clearly ranked below P1.

    I suggest that considering the starting stack size is a tie-breaking mechanism between players who would otherwise be tied. You could just have the rule be that the players tie for position and chop the combined prizes.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Card Dead View Post
    Unlike the blinds, the BBA is considered dead money and therefore can not be part of a playerís stack. If itís not part of a live stack, and canít be used to keep you from being eliminated, how can it be used to enhance your finishing position?
    I think that's incorrect. The unbalanced ante is not part of the player's betting capacity, but it didn't come from nowhere, it came from the players starting stack. Starting stack sizes are known fixed quantities at the start of the hand, and that's the point in time when tie-breaking is determined. Finishing positions are pre-calculated, if you will. Nothing is being enhanced later, it's already determined before the hand plays out, in case it's needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Card Dead View Post
    And since the TDA has still yet to make a decision on this, itís clearly not a simple answer.
    I read / skimmed the TDA 2019 rules v1.0 this morning. I didn't see a rule about tie-breaking when multiple players are busted out in the same hand. I might have missed it though.

  6. #36
    19 PFC Tourney Wins Buzzzardd's Avatar
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    This is the best topic on this forum in a long time.

    Not sure who is right, but there is one thing that could happen if you start the hand after the ante is put in. Player is the BB. He puts his ante in. Since the hand has not started yet, he can get moved to a different table. Hw would have to leave his ante at his original table and not have a chance to win it back. Also, if he only has enough to pay the ante, but not the big blind, he would be eliminated without playing a hand. That definitely is not fair. Or he might get moved to a different table where he is BB again and has to post another ante. I am sure he would not be happy at all and I don’t think that would be fair.

    I have no idea what the answer is, but everyone has made great points. I love the BB ante and am curious to find out what the TDA summit comes up with in their discussions.

  7. #37
    Full PFC Member DataMn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzzardd View Post
    This is the best topic on this forum in a long time.

    Not sure who is right, but there is one thing that could happen if you start the hand after the ante is put in. Player is the BB. He puts his ante in. Since the hand has not started yet, he can get moved to a different table. Hw would have to leave his ante at his original table and not have a chance to win it back.
    The order that is being debated is:

    Ante starts the hand (in which case the player plays the rest of the hand)

    or

    First riffle, then Ante

    Either way, I don't think your scenario would apply. There should be no reason for anyone to have any chips in the pot before the hand actually starts.

    If for some reason someone does have to be moved right away instead of waiting for a new hand (director was busy/distracted etc.), then they were never in the Big Blind at the current table, and should not have to post anything.

  8. #38
    19 PFC Tourney Wins Buzzzardd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13CARDS View Post
    Having encountered this exact scenario in a weekly MTT, I suggest the start of the hand is AFTER the Big Blind Ante has been posted.
    I was taking this too literally when I made my post.

  9. #39
    alces alces moose's Avatar
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    The discussion is moot and silly. The hand starts on the first riffle period. If the hand starts when the blinds and antes are posted then it would be possible for someone to avoid a change in levels by posting their blinds before the dealer starts the riffle.

    This is often the case in home games where games are self dealt. Not the case in a professionally run casino tournament.

    Can you break a table after the dealer has started a riffle? Can a player avoid playing one more hand before break by refusing to post his blinds if a dealer has started the riffle before the break starts? No because the hand starts on the riffle.

    Has nothing whatsoever to do when the blinds are posted.

    Any other discussion on what to do if multiple players bust is moot. It matters not who can take out who after the antes are posted. This is action that takes place after the hand has started.


    Stacks are determined before the first riffle and not after.


    The antes are posted after the hand has started.

  10. #40
    Flop smasher trigs's Avatar
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    Just curious what happens in the case of two decks being used or an automatic card shuffler? The riffle is then taking place before the last hand has finished.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by trigs View Post
    Just curious what happens in the case of two decks being used or an automatic card shuffler? The riffle is then taking place before the last hand has finished.
    When hand shuffling one deck the first riffle starts the hand. When using two decks and/or a machine shuffle, the cut of the shuffled cards starts the hand.

  12. #42
    Accidental Poker Tourist BlondeFish's Avatar
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    When using an automatic shuffler machine, the hand begins with the push of the shuffler button, not at the cut. See TDA Rule #23.

    Quote Originally Posted by 13CARDS View Post
    When using two decks and/or a machine shuffle, the cut of the shuffled cards starts the hand.

  13. #43
    Flop smasher trigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeFish View Post
    When using an automatic shuffler machine, the hand begins with the push of the shuffler button, not at the cut. See TDA Rule #23.
    Well if that's the case, that causes issues.

  14. #44
    alces alces moose's Avatar
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    AFAIK the shuffle begins automatically when the deck is inserted and the lid closes. The light turns green when the deck is shuffled. Pressing the shuffler button extracts the deck which is not done until the previous hand has concluded.

  15. #45
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    Without giving this too much thought I've come up with a proposal: why not take a simple approach and instead of determining when a hand starts and using that as a "defining" moment, decide when a hand finishes and using that as the "determining" moment? Since pushing the pot to a player seems to be a pretty definitive point in a hand why not use this as the point in time when one hand ends and the next hand effectively begins. Stack sizes as of that precise moment can be easily determined and used for determining finishes where more than one player is eliminated in the next hand. Does this make any sense?

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