Thread: HUD's

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  1. #1
    Full PFC Member UBetIFold's Avatar
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    HUD's

    Not sure if this is the right place for this, if not a mod can direct where it needs to be.


    I'm not sure if anyone or everyone will be forthcoming in this but....who uses them, who does not use them, cash or tournaments?

    Are there any solid winning (I'll use MTT'ers and sng's here as this is my game) (BF, T8, Acepter(sp?) )that have consistently crushed, and have not had one?

    I feel like I may (or may not, not totally sure) be missing in on some value by not ever using one, ive never been on the hardcore math side of poker, most of my play is usually feel based as a majority, and because I never play more then 4 tables simultaneously I feel like I can follow the action quite well, trying to pick ups reads, and constantly making notes on players if I see anything noteworthy.

    I do check SS (only free version) constantly to initially feel out my competition, and also OPR if I'm deep in a MTT and will make notes on what I find based on those results.

    So, who uses them, who doesn't, and if so which statistics specifically are you using, or recommend to use?

    Go...

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    Full PFC Member trigs's Avatar
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    i use PT4. i have different HUDs for cash and MTTs. i'm not a "crusher" by any means though.

    general stats i use are: voluntarily put $ in pot, preflop raise, flop cbet, fold to cbet, aggression factor. some others that are decent are the steal attempts percentages from SB and BB and fold to steal attempts. obviously you can have # of hands and # of BBs or M.

    it's also good to colour code them for easy clarification.

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    alces alces moose's Avatar
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    I use PT4 and I think they make a huge difference. My best results were on the pokerroom skins where HUD did not work. ie. I think reg opponents use them against me and use them against the other regs whereas I don't have much data on the regs.
    To Bet or not to Be(t). That is the question. - Billy (Big Slick) Shakespeare
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    Pokerstars BOP winner philliivey's Avatar
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    Oh boy where to start,lol hm2 guy.

    I know people are going to say I have too much for a hud but here goes......


    Name/total hands
    Big blinds
    Line taken
    vpip/pfr/agg factor
    flop af/turn af/river af
    3bet/fold 3 bet
    co steal/btn steal/sb steal
    fold to steal/sb fold to steal/bb fold to steal
    wtsd/ won sd


    That's a pure sng hud

    I programmed auto rate myself and I did some pop ups myself

    I took shoving chart from colin moshman's book and did it as a pop up, nash push call chart and a small blind vs bb chart I got from a heads up guy and I did a what I call "WIN ODDS" pop up which is just certain hands against a certain range (used pokerstove) to come up with hand winning percentages.

    I use street by street hud's now as well, so got a flop, turn, river hud.
    Last edited by philliivey; Jun 23,2014 at 06:49 PM.

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    Pokerstars BOP winner philliivey's Avatar
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    Don't know if pokertracker has it, but the line taken stat I highly recommend using it if you "want to put the story together".

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    I only play MTTs and use HM2, I've tried HM1,PT3 and PT4 (trials). There is no huge difference between HM2 and PT4 and its very debatable that either of them can be as good.

    I didn't use a HUD at first until i increased my bankroll to $500 then invested in it. I think that if you play a lot (4+ sessions a week) then its a must. It is advantageous and beneficial. If you don't play as much then its probably not worth it and just concentrating and taking notes will do.

    Hud stats:
    Name/hands
    VPIP/PFR/steal/3 bet/fold to 3 bet
    c bet/fold to c bet/4 bet/WTSD%
    In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by philliivey View Post
    Oh boy where to start,lol hm2 guy.

    I know people are going to say I have too much for a hud but here goes......


    Name/total hands
    Big blinds
    Line taken
    vpip/pfr/agg factor
    flop af/turn af/river af
    3bet/fold 3 bet
    co steal/btn steal/sb steal
    fold to steal/sb fold to steal/bb fold to steal
    wtsd/ won sd


    That's a pure sng hud

    I programmed auto rate myself and I did some pop ups myself

    I took shoving chart from colin moshman's book and did it as a pop up, nash push call chart and a small blind vs bb chart I got from a heads up guy and I did a what I call "WIN ODDS" pop up which is just certain hands against a certain range (used pokerstove) to come up with hand winning percentages.

    I use street by street hud's now as well, so got a flop, turn, river hud.
    Your HUD's complexity won't be the advantage necessarily. I DO know some crushers that don't use or rely on HUD's, pretty sure Shake hates using them, and BTP isn't the biggest proponent. What's important though, or helpful, like the case above, is learning how to use it and what it is for and what the stats mean. Learning all of that stuff will grow your game immensely, regardless if you use a HUD.

    HUD popularity mostly comes from cash game play where the antes and stacks are often similar from hand to hand. In mtts and sng's this information breaks down and often the sample size needed is something we never actually achieve.

    For this, I would say Hud's have huge misconceptions and are largely overrated especially by non cash game players. I see on other forums a lot of "they had a 20/18 vpip over 30 hands" and often you need thousands maybe 10's of thousands of hands to really have an accurate idea of ranges through a HUD (ok there are caveat's but I think its an important point).

    Because of this, hud's are often what hold aspiring online players back from truly achieving their goals because we start to auto pilot spots that we shouldn't. A backer of mine once told me he'd rather me not play if my hud is not working, which I think is silly since although I'm not AS profitable (perhaps) without it, I'm certainly profitable.

    I know a lot of rec players feel its an unfair advantage, and in some ways it is, but often a HUD is something that stops the general field from really paying attention and learning about their opponents.

    I'd learn about it OP, but not worry about too much. There are far more significant aspects of the game to concentrate our learning and skill based thoughts on.

  8. #8
    $$$ GTA Poker's Avatar
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    what philli said
    $$$

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    Full PFC Member reibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Startles View Post
    Your HUD's complexity won't be the advantage necessarily. I DO know some crushers that don't use or rely on HUD's, pretty sure Shake hates using them, and BTP isn't the biggest proponent. What's important though, or helpful, like the case above, is learning how to use it and what it is for and what the stats mean. Learning all of that stuff will grow your game immensely, regardless if you use a HUD.

    HUD popularity mostly comes from cash game play where the antes and stacks are often similar from hand to hand. In mtts and sng's this information breaks down and often the sample size needed is something we never actually achieve.

    For this, I would say Hud's have huge misconceptions and are largely overrated especially by non cash game players. I see on other forums a lot of "they had a 20/18 vpip over 30 hands" and often you need thousands maybe 10's of thousands of hands to really have an accurate idea of ranges through a HUD (ok there are caveat's but I think its an important point).

    Because of this, hud's are often what hold aspiring online players back from truly achieving their goals because we start to auto pilot spots that we shouldn't. A backer of mine once told me he'd rather me not play if my hud is not working, which I think is silly since although I'm not AS profitable (perhaps) without it, I'm certainly profitable.

    I know a lot of rec players feel its an unfair advantage, and in some ways it is, but often a HUD is something that stops the general field from really paying attention and learning about their opponents.

    I'd learn about it OP, but not worry about too much. There are far more significant aspects of the game to concentrate our learning and skill based thoughts on.

    exactly this^

    I have had a hud for years and only starting to use it properly now.

    I have a massive db of hands, but because I play the micro stakes, it's rare to have more than a few hundred hands on more than 1-2 players at any given table. Which means that most stats are not useful at all.

    I think one of the main things is the way the game is played (mtts), with so much aggression based on position and stack size, that our main HUD stats are not telling us the proper story. Ie. Just cus someone has 3 bet 40% (4/10), doesn't mean they are 3 betting your utg1 raise with J9o or something. It very well could mean that the opponent has been 3 betting steals a lot, and doesn't balance his 3 bets vs EP. So now we need to start to look at 3 bet by position....etc.

  10. #10
    Full PFC Member UBetIFold's Avatar
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    Wow! Great information so far, thank you all for providing insight.


    Cliffs at bottom, although reading and feedback on my novel would be much appreciated.


    To answer a few questions, I do play on avg 4 or + sessions a week, with a bankroll of over $500.

    I guess some of my issues are against mostly regs, now overall, I feel like I do reasonable the majority of the time putting them on correct ranges, and trying to act accordingly, this is also all based on game flow, past experiences, and situational. I'm not using any kind of Nash shove/ calling charts, or the like but feel I adapt well in most situations.

    I'm assuming the majority of regs I play against are using HUD's against me, and are very likely finding +ev situations based on the stats given that I am completely unaware of.

    They way I look at it, for one ex. I see someone constantly raising the button on my bb, obv without stats, I may let it go for awhile, then I'll start 3b the bottom of my calling range along with my already 3b range, or something of that nature to combat certain situations. As of now, I'm basically creating my own stats in my head against a said villain, usually when I notice they are doing one thing either too freq, or not freq enough. This is also done by trial and error sometimes though, and obv much smaller sample sizes.


    Getting back to HUD's, it seems as most of them offer relatively the same features as far as choice is concerned.

    For an absolute beginner with a HUD, what statistics should I be starting out with to get the feel of it, and exactly what do the numbers therein represent? If someone has a fold to cbet of 5%, I assume if I don't have a extended plan for the hand on future streets, I shouldn't be cbetting a ton of missed hands or air, now if someone has fold to a 3b of 85% (don't even know if this is a real #, and If it is, what it actually means) should I be 3b this person relentlessly, where as without a HUD I may play more straight forward?


    Cliffs:

    Basically, which stats to show, and what a baseline of those numbers represent.

    Hopefully I didnt turn this into a brick wall of text and you guys actually read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UBetIFold View Post

    For an absolute beginner with a HUD, what statistics should I be starting out with to get the feel of it, and exactly what do the numbers therein represent? If someone has a fold to cbet of 5%, I assume if I don't have a extended plan for the hand on future streets, I shouldn't be cbetting a ton of missed hands or air, now if someone has fold to a 3b of 85% (don't even know if this is a real #, and If it is, what it actually means) should I be 3b this person relentlessly, where as without a HUD I may play more straight forward?
    Vpip and Pfr are the usually ones you hear and learn about first. Voluntarily put money in pot, and preflop raise (something like that).

    3bet
    cbet flop
    stealing %
    Fold bb to steal

    I would say those. Its important to understand them from hero's perspective and villains perspective, and to learn about what samples you need. Vpip and pfr, you can learn a 'decent' amount from smaller samples like 30 hands played.

    But with 3betting, for example, you really need a decent sample. You gotta play a lot of hands with villain for their 3 bet stat to be decently accurate.

    But dive into it!!! There is no better way, than to just learn each stat one by one and then start adding your own that you want to see and understand. These are great questions and ultimately the questions that you ask are going to determine your skill level.

    I will say though, nothing beats taking notes on players, especially noting the hole cards they showdown.

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    Full PFC Member UBetIFold's Avatar
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    Am I correct here in assuming my decision should either be HM2 or PT4? What about SS HUD? Does anyone subscribe to SS?

    Also, they have small stakes, and all stakes, I try and sat into a lot of $50-200 buy in trnys, I'm guessing I'd have to opt for the $99 version to cover all stakes.

    Also, this is a one time payment for all the software and not recurring, monthly or annually?

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    Full PFC Member reibs's Avatar
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    Honestly, I am biased as I have only used pt4 once I initially reviewed the two of them. I wouldn't pay for SS HUD, as its pricey IMO... but to each their own. I do have a SS membership, but just to search ppl on FTs.

    PT4/HM2 are widely accepted as the two to chose from, yes. I can say that I have had a few issues with the recent PT4 updates (as have a lot of ppl), but their support literally walked me through the steps to fix it, which were not easy. Very helpful support.

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    Full PFC Member reibs's Avatar
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    also, I took PFR out of my main HUD. I prefer to use RFI (raise first in), and then I have a popup for it to show me the positional breakdown when I click on that stat. Incredibly helpful to know how often your opponent is raising bvb.

    The stats startles posted below seems pretty good for a start. But yes, nothing will beat jumping right in and learning the stats. Once you understand them, you can exploit them. Knowing an opponent's got a 65%+ fold to cbet is gold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UBetIFold View Post
    Am I correct here in assuming my decision should either be HM2 or PT4? What about SS HUD? Does anyone subscribe to SS?

    Also, they have small stakes, and all stakes, I try and sat into a lot of $50-200 buy in trnys, I'm guessing I'd have to opt for the $99 version to cover all stakes.

    Also, this is a one time payment for all the software and not recurring, monthly or annually?
    I believe SS Hud violates the T + C's of most sites. But its not really an immoral hud to use, and Stars and other sites prob don't really care anyways. I did use it a long time ago for a couple weeks without hearing anything from them (I didn't even realize it was illegal).

    The issue is that with Sng's and the like, they are so high variance that knowing a persons winrate doesn't always really tell us that much. So it caused me (and many others) to think I am making properly thought out decisions that were really quite random.

    Usually players use HM2 or PT4, and so far I haven't seen a clear winner, although I still use pt3, and I'm content with becoming a dinosaur in that regard. I just worry too much information can be blinding (something I picked up from this book Blink (book) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, great read for poker players or anyone btw).

    There are trials for most hud and poker software and they are a great thing because usually they are fairly fully functional. When I got my trials a few years ago, I spent most of the time troubleshooting the set up, and when I had to actually subscribe I set up on another computer and spent quite some time doing it again.

    But to me that's how you really learn 'hud', just get down and dirty with them, and eventually even the process of installing will make you a better player even if you never end up really using them.

    It's usually a one time payment, other posts might know exactly, but if you play poker online very much at all 100bux will pay for itself with the knowledge you will gain from it, regardless if it actually helps you make decisions on the table.

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