Irunit4times Fallsview WPT 2016 Bap!
$1,100 Fallsview Main Event (markup = $33) Total $1133
2.5% = $28.33
5% = $56.65
10% = $113.30
15% = $169.95
20% = $226.60
5% - Hobbes PD
5% Swap - Blondefish
5% Swap - Teo
2.5% = $28.33
5% = $56.65
10% = $113.30
15% = $169.95
20% = $226.60
5% - Hobbes PD
5% Swap - Blondefish
5% Swap - Teo
Comments
Bfillmaff came to mind and I smiled at the thought. That sick son of a bitch.
Emt details needed
GL though... go get that DIAPER MONEY!!
I would never sell my action of a main event satellite at face value or near it because for $150 id be giving up thousands in a large cash. Its just a way for anyone willing to take a risk, hence a BAP is always risky, for a +EV staking deal if you feel I am good enough to cash in a main event.
Its not for everyone, and if I do win the seat, then I am going to sell my action there, and if it please people to pay that price I am all for it. I just thought I would give an option to those who would want to pay less than a full stake price for a main event but still end up with the same reward. In fact, by allowing myself to get staked at the super satellite prices, I am taking money out of my pocket potentially.
Just my .02 and not forcing anybody to like it or do it, just the way I see things and giving the option.
Go get em!
Cmon, don't keep me waiting.
Why thank you. Well the only satellite I plan to win is the $550 as I plan to bink the $1100 lol and be unavailable to play the $275.
How is it exactly that I am freerolling? My total buy in is $825 my actual cost, which I am guaranteed to play unless I am still in the prior tournament. With the markup the total buy in is $1237. I am selling only 15% which totals $185.55. So I am still buying in for $639.45 of my own money, so I guess thats basically freerolling
Why would I guarantee to play a tournament for a small markup on a satellite tournament, I am guaranteeing you the same equity in the main event if I cash based on a much smaller tournament with a markup, this makes no sense, I am better off to not sell any action at any markup and then when/if I win a seat sell it at full value with a small markup like the other main and then make more money that way. So you think as a player it makes more sense to sell my satellite equity par for par and give up that much equity in the main event. Thats insane. As an investor, sure, thats a great deal, but it needs to be equally profitable for player and investor, and I believe that it still is just that. Even if I dont win the $575 seat and won the $275 seat and min cashed, your equity still leaves a good profit. Again, nobody is forced to buy or participate, these are options, and if people do not like it, they do not buy or participate. I am fine with that. Maybe I should just take it down and delete it, which gives me even more drive to win my seat and go on to cash.
You can mock it all you want, I am not saying its the greatest idea ever, but its not as crazy as you may think. How about a player that gets staked 100% but only gets to keep 10-20% of any winnings and 80-90% go to the investor. In this scenario I have no risk, complete freeroll. In this scenario I am guaranteeing to play the satellites if I can and I am still putting up like 77% of the total buy in. I have risk involved too, and I would think that someone who still has a risk to themselves would be more driven to get a return, as they are more impacted by the outcome.
Any staking venture is a risk, and by putting together a bap as a player its a way to hedge your own playing so try and eliminate variance over the long run and providing potential value for the investor. In this scenario there is value because your buying a percentage of the $275 satellite, but virtually by way of its a must play and direct buy in to the next tournament, you are buying a piece at a deeply discounted rate vs the actual main event buy in price. If the $275 buy in was for a cash payout tournament, then the markup would be crazy as the payouts would never be in anyones favour unless I am favourtite to take it down.
I find it funny that you sit there and mock, but there are none of those players with the exception of 1 that offers baps online, and for the most part plays any real tournaments at all. I can quite simply buy in to these tournaments directly but obviously from day one on here I have always liked the idea of selling action, not so much for the money I get back out of it, but as much as I would like to cash and do well and be able to earn some others some money and have others be able to share in any success I may have. If you look back on previous baps, some ive made money, some I havnt, some I have freerolled guys for supporting me. This is by no means a money making venture for me. But you are entitled to feel differently.
Ultimately I am playing these tournaments often now, or as much as I can, and I like to give the opportunity to others to have a chance to share in the success I may have. But if my ideas lead me to be mocked at games by guys who don't "put up" they would rather shit on the ideas of others, I can simply take this bap down and no problem keeping any winnings to myself. In fact my thought of even giving up equity in a main event at a satellite price was ludacris to me, but I thought some people may be able to see value in that and if they do, great, if not, no support, either way I am fine with it.
You wonder why people on here come and go, because when people try to offer suggestions, or put ideas that the older "core" group don't like, its very openly mocked and driven out. This is supposed to be a community for players to share and discuss, if you don't like my ideas, discuss, as you would the logic behind a hand, or a debate you seem so fit to have on a poker site about religion and if god exists, but to come on here insulting me and telling me that im the brunt of a joke and the target of a new poker meme is disgusting as I have done nothing wrong to deserve that and only ever tried to be constructive and part of this forum.
Half the people on here only ever play home games, so thats fine, but the small few actually travel to events, or play live games, discuss it, offer opportunties to support them, discuss tournaments of value and structures and the like. Its interesting that those players are so openly mocked by players that are only ever found at the tables of a basement game. Poker is poker and your entitled to your opinions, but the ones actually out there, playing the live games, telling their stories and trip reports, putting hand analysis discussions and offering baps, deserve a little more respect then that. Otherwise turn thise site into a damn hangout group chat and get rid of the association to poker, because it's disgusting how I have seen players treated on here in the past.
Myself at this moment, blondefish in the past, many players new coming on to post about dreams and aspiring to be pro, or theories about games, and actual poker talk, constantly shit on. I find it sad, and disgusting. Which will again lead me to take a hiatus from this site, and frankly even shut down my poker group.
As the money hungry guy that I am, I run all those games out of my own house, with cards, tables, chairs, etc that I have paid for, a site that I pay monthly for, running games with no rake of any kind to real tournaments. But with the attitudes I have seen on here, I am very uninterested about even bothering anymore, especially with my child on the way, I would rather deal with one child opposed to the antics of many.
Do as you wish with this post, I am pretty well done now. I may just delete entire bap to be honest, refund Hobbes his money and keep my swaps with the players I know who actually play the events.
Rant Over.
(That's all the mediating I can do for now, I just gave some old lady 4 buyins...)
edit: correction: 3 buy ins to the old lady, 1 buy in to the old man. FU comp!
Your markup represents that your chances of cashing is better than the rest of the field and therefore represents added value. Markup is not related to equity at all. If anything, your risk is higher because winning a satellite does not provide any cash out to the BAPers and depends on you subsequently cashing. Instead you propose to charge a premium as if your chances suddenly improve, just because you win a satellite ticket.
Good point.
I add the rake and markup together and try to see if this investment has a good chance to be profitable. Like if all I ever did was invest in these, would I show a profit over 10 years?
So boil it all down and your bap to the main seems like it has a reasonable chance to be profitable for investors with rake and markup being < 15% I think, coupled with the idea that you are a better than average player.
With your satellite bap I can't see this being long term profitable for investors. I don't know what the pros can charge for markup but I would be surprised if they could get this much. I look at the rake on the satellite and main, the staff gratuity and add in the markup to get an idea of the overall 'rake'. Then I try to determine if it can be profitable, given the player.
Anyway, you are a good tourney player and a better investment than others. Good luck.
For the record, I disliked Moose's original post and Irunit's response but do agree in principle with Moose's and pkrfce's subsequent explanation, just not the way Moose originally made his point, it was a little harsh imo..
I don't recall anyone mocking you but the consensus at the table certainly was questionable re the way you structured the bap...
I agree you can charge whatever markup you want on an individual tournament and it's up to the individual investor to decide on value provided thereof, however marking up a satellite based on perceived winnings in the main is just not right. I have bapped satellite's before, no markup at all just to reduce variance, but cannot justify any more than your standard markup would be if you were buying directly into the main.
Providing a BAP reduces your variance and benefits you. Charging a markup for people to provide that benefit is just greed and is not of added value unless you feel that somehow you are severely underestimating your chances of cashing over the field. Pros can charge a markup because they have a demonstratable track record of profitability. Providing a lengthy post about playing well and running bad as justification for your markup is just silly. Pros can afford to buy into a tournament directly too but do equity swaps and a sell action not out of the goodness of their hearts but to reduce their variance.
People like to participate in BAPs on this forum because they do support your dreams and are trying to help you get there. To claim otherwise and say that people spit on players with dreams is ridiculous. This isn't Mean Girls. There isn't a group out there out to get you and trying to drag you down.
I made the post because I felt you should know what a group of poker players, just as experienced, if not more than you were saying about your BAP. Mostly because I at least have the integrity to tell you to your face and also because if you do want people to help you in your dreams that you have to adjust your thinking.
You really can't put a price on those with my economic model but they certainly have value.
This is a useful discussion.
The effective rake to your investors is 33% (10% event rake + 23% MU). This means that you have to have an average cash out about $2000, 1 out of 3 times, for people to break even on your BAP.
Based on your post, you do not have the track record for people to break even on this model. Even players with much longer and stronger tournament careers do not charge this kind on MU. Look at DJS BAP - no extra MU for the $275 satty. Even if you feel you have a 60% chance of getting thru the satellites and a 30% chance of cashing in the mains, that only puts you at cashing 18% of the time.
So while I don't necessarily think you're trying to rip people off on purpose, it definitely seems like a case of overconfidence at the least, which is where most of the disbelief originated.
I think if I was selling action on a satellite I could justify charging a mu since it would take a lot of my time and effort to get to 2 separate events to potentially make $$$ for my supporters. At this point I'm happy to have any support at all until I can show consistent results but that is another story.
Like alex said, if you are interested, that's his price because he doesn't really need to sell any of his satellite action. And that is fine. Take it or leave it. I don't think he's doing a hard sell on this.
The markup on his main event action seems very reasonable to me. From the way I saw him build his stack early on at Rama, the kid has a decent shot to do well.
If your roll is such that you have to BAP a satellite, your comfort level in the target event has an assumption of discomfort. This intuitively reduces your ROI. In this case you have 2 options.
1) BAP the satty and transfer the % purchased over to the target event. This is advantageous for the buyer, sure, but the seller is the one that can't manage full buyin.
2) BAP the satty and don't play the target event, selling the seat and paying out on the profit. This is less enticing as a buyer because my investment ceiling is capped.
What's been proposed has some logic behind it, but it's flawed and is a poor buyer environment.
I question this math too. What about rake on the satellite? I thought the whole thing was higher but I haven't dug into this.
You only pay rake once - on the satty. The rake on the ME is included in your satty winnings. Rake on both super sattys and MEs is 10%, not including staff gratuities.