One of us is probably a fish, or maybe we don't see eye to eye....

UnknownUnknown
in Online Poker
This is a hand from a SNG I'm in right now.  BBC (and others) please don't lecture me about "educating the fish".  I know, I know, I'm trying, I'm trying, OK?  ;)

The real question here is: who's the fish?  Me for making this play or him for not understanding it?  (ie: maybe he doesn't understand the play because he's right: it is actually really really bad?)

***** Hand History for Game 2476824507 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in  + $15 Entry Fee  Trny:14538460 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, August 04, 13:58:30 EDT 2005
Table Table  10874 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: SuperTOMTE ( $1505 )
Seat 2: JUANRAMON ( $1365 )
Seat 5: Aces_All ( $1500 )
Seat 7: Pondlife ( $640 )
Seat 9: VikesWin2005 ( $2715 )
Seat 3: venetian2005 ( $1025 )
Seat 4: Acehole__69 ( $1250 )
Trny:14538460 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Aces_All [  Qs Js ]
SuperTOMTE folds.
JUANRAMON folds.
venetian2005 folds.
Acehole__69 folds.
Aces_All raises [300].
Pondlife folds.
VikesWin2005 calls [200].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7c, As, 7h ]
VikesWin2005 checks.
Aces_All checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5c ]
VikesWin2005 bets [450].
Aces_All calls [450].
** Dealing River ** [ Qh ]
VikesWin2005 bets [500].
Aces_All is all-In  [750]
VikesWin2005 calls [250].
VikesWin2005 shows [ 6c, 6h ] two pairs, sevens and sixes.
Aces_All shows [ Qs, Js ] two pairs, queens and sevens.
Aces_All wins 3050 chips from  the main pot  with two pairs, queens and sevens.
Game #2476828052 starts.

VikesWin2005: wow, called bet on turn with nothing
VikesWin2005: brilliant
Aces_All: wasn't trying to catch... just trying to rep. an ace to push u off river
Aces_All: played it as if i had an ace
Aces_All: of course, your river bet was so much it would have thwarted me
Aces_All: i expected the riv to go you check, me allin, you fold
VikesWin2005: actually playing like you had an ace would have meant betting flop
Aces_All: no
Aces_All: playing it like i had an ace
Aces_All: would mean checking the flop
Aces_All: no obvious draws on that flop... why would i bet an ace?
VikesWin2005: ok, playing it like a good player would play an ace would be betting flop

Comments

  • ScottyZScottyZ
    I'd suggest the player note "ABC, especially on the flop" for your opponent.

    I probably would have bet the flop most of the time. I think I'd only consider a more fancy play if I had been taking a lot of shots at pots on the flop and giving up on them, and I thought that my table was picking up on the fact that I was often betting flops with nothing.

    I can see where both of you are coming from in the chat. An ABC player will not understand advanced plays just as calling to set up a bluff, slowplaying the top pair of Aces, representing slowplaying the top pair of Aces, etc. An advanced player will see the ABC player as being too straightforward to understand these kinds of plays. You are almost speaking two different poker languages in your chat, and each one of you is probably baffled at the other's bizzare way of looking at poker strategy.

    As the hand actually went, why not just call the $500 river bet rather than raising the last $250? I think I'd be happy enough calling the river bet and showing it down. On the other hand, your opponent is pretty much guaranteed to call you with anything at all, so it really comes down to a judgement of whether your opponent slowplayed the flop with an A or 7 himself. Of course, his chat after the hand gives you a lot of information, for example:

    1. Next time, try bluffing against this player on the flop, rather than a more complicated delayed bluff. Reason: Your opponent is not a complicated poker thinker.

    2. Raising the last $250 in retrospect (i.e. if you had seen this chat exchange in advance) was totally correct, since there is about a 0% chance of your opponent having an Ace or 7.

    I'm not sure that the benefits didn't outweigh the costs of "educating the fish" in this case. Your opponent came right out and told you both his own flop playing style, and the flop playing style he expects of his opponents. Not such a bad trade.

    I thought that this line was particularly amusing, after you had played the hand without an Ace:
    Aces_All: played it as if i had an ace

    That'll confuse 'em up good, Tex!

    ScottyZ
  • zerozero
    I think that if you wanted to represent an ace you shouldve raised him on the turn. Thats an easier play for your opponent to figure you for a slow-played ace.
  • RedingtonRedington
    all_aces wrote:
    This is a hand from a SNG I'm in right now. BBC (and others) please don't lecture me about "educating the fish". I know, I know, I'm trying, I'm trying, OK? ;)

    The real question here is: who's the fish? Me for making this play or him for not understanding it? (ie: maybe he doesn't understand the play because he's right: it is actually really really bad?)

    Not bad at all, just a question of styles.

    I would bet that flop, if I had an ace/ if I had AA I wouldn't(absolute nuts). But I want to set up that I'm betting when Im ahead. So when an Ace hits, player who can read ABC, puts 123 together and knows I have an ace.

    You would check if you had an ace, because you always want to set up a fancy play. Biggest problem Im finding with fancy plays is that alot of players arent that fancy.
    But when the ABC player bets that flop after you check, you have to reraise or fold. A call means your trying to catch.

    I find alot of players remember you betting when you have it vs. the fancy play you set up when you really had it.

    I know this could never happen, but what if the guy with the 66 raises you all in when the Q doesn't fall? What do you take his cards to be? Could he have been setting you up? fish? huh?...nah never happen :)
  • zerozero
    Redington wrote:
    I would bet that flop, if I had an ace/ if I had AA I wouldn't(absolute nuts).

    Ahem, what about 77? :D
  • ScoobyDScoobyD
    I like the check on the flop if you have an ace there. You're either way ahead (no ace) or way behind (if the guy actually has the seven). You seem to minimize your losses while getting more from your wins by playing it slow (but not slowplaying per se). As everyone says, it all comes down to perception and I'd say AA is probably a full step or 2 beyond the player in question. Seeing a check and assuming weakness says alot about the guy's game. He figures bet = strength, check = weakness. I'd tend to vary my play, and would be more inclined to bet an A there into a multiway pot (as a feeler bet). Cold calls would in general scare me much more than a raise in that spot since nobody tends to raise trips in that spot with no draw out there unless:
    a) They're uber ABC, lets just call then AB.
    or
    b) They're thinking on the next level knowing that a good player might interpret a raise as a bluff and might play back at them or possibly call them down.

    The multi-levels of thinking are what make it such a beauty of a game...
  • RedingtonRedington
    zero wrote:
    Redington wrote:
    I would bet that flop, if I had an ace/ if I had AA I wouldn't(absolute nuts).

    Ahem, what about 77?  :D

    OK, I guess thats the absolutley nutty nutz!

    Well then...umm I'm praying he has AA. But I going to bet that flop (if I think he will over play his hand).... I will only check 50% of the time when I think he might check. But I would definetly show if bet and dont get called.
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    zero wrote:
    I think that if you wanted to represent an ace you shouldve raised him on the turn. Thats an easier play for your opponent to figure you for a slow-played ace.

    Seems like you need to just call because he could easily be slowplaying an ace, and you won't be sure until he checks to you on the river.
  • UnknownUnknown
    AWESOME comments so far guys.  I love this forum.

    It seems to me that I should have probably raised the turn (all-in) or folded.

    Here's how I pictured that hand happening (and FWIW I'm liable to do anything holding an ace on that flop... check behind or bet as I'm sure you all are...)

    The following two scenarios are both based on the fact that I don't think he has an ace:

    NUMBER ONE: We both check the flop.  He bets the turn, and I raise him all-in.  He then folds (in my happy little vision of this hand).  Total pot: T1150.

    NUMBER TWO: We both check the flop.  He bets the turn, and I call.  Because I called (and he doesn't have an ace) he checks the river, giving up on his possible bluff, I move in, and he folds.  Total pot: T1150.

    So, the pot sizes are the same in both cases.  The problem with scenario number two, though, is that I gave him the option to bet the river, which he did, which I wasn't expecting.  If I didn't hit that queen on the river I would have had to fold, giving him the pot.  So, number one is the better way to go, since I remove the option of him betting the river and pot-committing himself to my puny re-raise.  If I really believed he didn't have an ace (which for some reason I did) then why not just move in on the turn?  End it there.  That would have been the best play, I think.

    Scotty:
    You are almost speaking two different poker languages in your chat, and each one of you is probably baffled at the other's bizzare way of looking at poker strategy.

    ROFL.  Looking back at the chat, that seems to be exactly the case.  Your point about the river raise is a good one (just calling the river bet instead of moving all-in for a small amount that will certainly be called regardless of his holding).  I sometimes become convinced about what my opponent is doing/thinking, and I've been wrong before.  Several times.  What's that saying?  Caution is the better part of valour?  PCMIIW. 

    I just made up a new internet-geek-speak acronym and it stands for "please correct me if I'm wrong".  I see a bright, bright future for PCMIIW.

    Zero:
    I think that if you wanted to represent an ace you shouldve raised him on the turn. Thats an easier play for your opponent to figure you for a slow-played ace.
    You're absolutely right IMO.

    Redington:
    I know this could never happen, but what if the guy with the 66 raises you all in when the Q doesn't fall? What do you take his cards to be? Could he have been setting you up? fish? huh?...nah never happen

    Yeah, sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong.  I only post the hands where I'm right though.  ;)

    ScoobyD:
    I'd tend to vary my play, and would be more inclined to bet an A there into a multiway pot (as a feeler bet)
    Great point about h/u vs. multiway pots.  I find that when pots are contested heads-up, there is a lot more room for movement and creativity.  Not always, but sometimes.

    SirWatts:
    Seems like you need to just call because he could easily be slowplaying an ace, and you won't be sure until he checks to you on the river
    You're absolutely right that he could easily be slowplaying an ace, but I don't think I can call the turn bet (or raise all-in) unless I'm completely sure (already, at the turn) that he isn't.  I think that calling the turn with the intention of folding the river to a bet is not what should be going through my head in this spot.  I can only just call the turn if I'm certain that he WON'T bet the river, so I can move in on him.  I was certain of that, but it didn't happen.  :) 
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    The more I think about it the more i don't like the call the turn bet the river. It just seems way too fancy, and looks like a bluff to most players I think (and rightly so it would seem!). I think anyone that has you pegged as an aggressive/tricky player will have a hard time folding a hand to this line. Raising the turn is simple and effective. Nice read.
  • the_mainthe_main
    if i put myself in the other guy's shoes...........

    after you raised me all in on the end, i would have you pegged for a 7 that you spiked while trying to steal the blinds preflop - what else could it be?
    I think if you had an ace, you want to take it down on the turn as the pot is large enough after my bet - and there is no way to put you on a queen

    so on the end im thinking 7 or bluff. either way im committed to calling

    i also bet that flop if im him
    for you, i agree with the turn reraise all in...
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