Some Unusual Sattelite Bubble Hands and a Question
Participated in one of the Stars 90 FPP sattelites toward the WCOOP. 1 entry to level 2 per 10 participants (ie: worth 900 FPP). Granted these are not the highest stakes in the world, however 900 FPPs are a bit of a pain to accumulate so I am assuming people are trying to win. Top 33 receive entry to level 2 and 34th gets about 500 FPPS (the leftover ones).
WIth 35 people left the following hand took place
Seat 1: MulberryJack (2900 in chips)
Seat 2: justinsc (6680 in chips)
Seat 3: Monteroy (3113 in chips)
Seat 4: mikas_pot (4315 in chips)
Seat 5: wingit55 (6750 in chips)
Seat 6: BoarderLiner (1476 in chips)
Seat 7: Mack58 (30075 in chips)
Seat 8: da1uluv (13893 in chips)
Seat 9: junioru (26983 in chips)
MulberryJack: posts the ante 50
justinsc: posts the ante 50
Monteroy: posts the ante 50
mikas_pot: posts the ante 50
wingit55: posts the ante 50
BoarderLiner: posts the ante 50
Mack58: posts the ante 50
da1uluv: posts the ante 50
junioru: posts the ante 50
mikas_pot: posts small blind 400
wingit55: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [9c 9h]
BoarderLiner: raises 626 to 1426 and is all-in
Mack58: folds
da1uluv: folds
junioru: folds
MulberryJack: folds
justinsc: folds
Monteroy: calls 1426
mikas_pot: folds
wingit55: folds
*** FLOP *** [8h Jd Kd]
*** TURN *** [8h Jd Kd] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [8h Jd Kd Qh] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BoarderLiner: shows [Ac 7d] (a pair of Jacks)
Monteroy: shows [9c 9h] (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
Monteroy collected 4502 from pot
My chip situation made this pretty uncomfotable. Normally I would shove and hope for noone else to call, but in this case I figured that the more who called the better to eliminate the small chipper. Both blinds had relatively small chips but I have to admit I was surprised both folded. It would seem to me that the BB should call with almost any hand and check all the way down. Thinking back to that hand I am still not sure I and/or the BB player made the appropriate plays, but it worked out.
What surprised me was how a person was eliminated to finish 34th. It happened in the following way
AngryAngler: folds
Butterland: folds
sapu: calls 1200
Aged Dog: folds
RaisinYa: folds
nothingben is disconnected
nothingben has timed out while disconnected
nothingben: folds
nothingben is sitting out
THE RAKE 55: folds
O.P.P.: raises 57909 to 59109 and is all-in
monk3040: folds
sapu: calls 11615 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [As 5d Ac]
*** TURN *** [As 5d Ac] [2c]
*** RIVER *** [As 5d Ac 2c] [2s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
O.P.P.: shows [Qh Qc] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
sapu: shows [Jh Kh] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
O.P.P. collected 27505 from pot
The chip leader shoved (note he was not doing this regularly) and someone with enough chips to basically sit out and make it decided to call with KJ off, even though on another table a person was going to be put all in due to blinds within a couple hands. Frankly I think if I was in his situation I would fold even AA since there was absolutely zero to gain from the call. It was certainly one of the strangest bubble plays I have seen.
On a completely seperate note, I offer this hand (from a $50 NL table on a cryptologic skin) with a question about betting rules:
dealt to Monteroy [Ks Kc]
pettsson2: calls $0.50
Kadet_cz: folds
_lev: folds
Monteroy: raises to $4
Haselip: raises to $6.35 and is all-in
Bajen3: calls $6.35
Stephe022: folds
bearass: folds
Masterpsy: folds
Gamb_0034: folds
pettsson2: folds
Monteroy: raises to $47.95 and is all-in
Bajen3: calls $41.60
FLOP
[5c 2d 9s]
TURN
[5c 2d 9s][Jd]
RIVER
[5c 2d 9s Jd][Ts]
SHOW DOWN
Monteroy: shows [Ks Kc] (A Pair of Kings, Jack high)
Haselip: shows [Tc Ac] (A Pair of Tens, Ace high)
Bajen3: shows [7c 7d] (A Pair of Sevens, Jack high)
Monteroy collected $81.20 from Side pot #1
Monteroy collected $19.30 from Main pot
My generous opponents aside, I was surprised that I could reraise all in from the A 10 players raise. I initially raised to $4 and he reraised only $2.35 more.
I was not sure I was going to be able to reraise or just be able to call due to the small size of his raise. I remember getting into a similar situation on Pokerstars where I was only able to call because the reraise to me was not large enough. What exactly are the rules in this area? Thanks in advance
WIth 35 people left the following hand took place
Seat 1: MulberryJack (2900 in chips)
Seat 2: justinsc (6680 in chips)
Seat 3: Monteroy (3113 in chips)
Seat 4: mikas_pot (4315 in chips)
Seat 5: wingit55 (6750 in chips)
Seat 6: BoarderLiner (1476 in chips)
Seat 7: Mack58 (30075 in chips)
Seat 8: da1uluv (13893 in chips)
Seat 9: junioru (26983 in chips)
MulberryJack: posts the ante 50
justinsc: posts the ante 50
Monteroy: posts the ante 50
mikas_pot: posts the ante 50
wingit55: posts the ante 50
BoarderLiner: posts the ante 50
Mack58: posts the ante 50
da1uluv: posts the ante 50
junioru: posts the ante 50
mikas_pot: posts small blind 400
wingit55: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [9c 9h]
BoarderLiner: raises 626 to 1426 and is all-in
Mack58: folds
da1uluv: folds
junioru: folds
MulberryJack: folds
justinsc: folds
Monteroy: calls 1426
mikas_pot: folds
wingit55: folds
*** FLOP *** [8h Jd Kd]
*** TURN *** [8h Jd Kd] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [8h Jd Kd Qh] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BoarderLiner: shows [Ac 7d] (a pair of Jacks)
Monteroy: shows [9c 9h] (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
Monteroy collected 4502 from pot
My chip situation made this pretty uncomfotable. Normally I would shove and hope for noone else to call, but in this case I figured that the more who called the better to eliminate the small chipper. Both blinds had relatively small chips but I have to admit I was surprised both folded. It would seem to me that the BB should call with almost any hand and check all the way down. Thinking back to that hand I am still not sure I and/or the BB player made the appropriate plays, but it worked out.
What surprised me was how a person was eliminated to finish 34th. It happened in the following way
AngryAngler: folds
Butterland: folds
sapu: calls 1200
Aged Dog: folds
RaisinYa: folds
nothingben is disconnected
nothingben has timed out while disconnected
nothingben: folds
nothingben is sitting out
THE RAKE 55: folds
O.P.P.: raises 57909 to 59109 and is all-in
monk3040: folds
sapu: calls 11615 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [As 5d Ac]
*** TURN *** [As 5d Ac] [2c]
*** RIVER *** [As 5d Ac 2c] [2s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
O.P.P.: shows [Qh Qc] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
sapu: shows [Jh Kh] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
O.P.P. collected 27505 from pot
The chip leader shoved (note he was not doing this regularly) and someone with enough chips to basically sit out and make it decided to call with KJ off, even though on another table a person was going to be put all in due to blinds within a couple hands. Frankly I think if I was in his situation I would fold even AA since there was absolutely zero to gain from the call. It was certainly one of the strangest bubble plays I have seen.
On a completely seperate note, I offer this hand (from a $50 NL table on a cryptologic skin) with a question about betting rules:
dealt to Monteroy [Ks Kc]
pettsson2: calls $0.50
Kadet_cz: folds
_lev: folds
Monteroy: raises to $4
Haselip: raises to $6.35 and is all-in
Bajen3: calls $6.35
Stephe022: folds
bearass: folds
Masterpsy: folds
Gamb_0034: folds
pettsson2: folds
Monteroy: raises to $47.95 and is all-in
Bajen3: calls $41.60
FLOP
[5c 2d 9s]
TURN
[5c 2d 9s][Jd]
RIVER
[5c 2d 9s Jd][Ts]
SHOW DOWN
Monteroy: shows [Ks Kc] (A Pair of Kings, Jack high)
Haselip: shows [Tc Ac] (A Pair of Tens, Ace high)
Bajen3: shows [7c 7d] (A Pair of Sevens, Jack high)
Monteroy collected $81.20 from Side pot #1
Monteroy collected $19.30 from Main pot
My generous opponents aside, I was surprised that I could reraise all in from the A 10 players raise. I initially raised to $4 and he reraised only $2.35 more.
I was not sure I was going to be able to reraise or just be able to call due to the small size of his raise. I remember getting into a similar situation on Pokerstars where I was only able to call because the reraise to me was not large enough. What exactly are the rules in this area? Thanks in advance
Comments
Interesting. They must have changed the payout structures very recently for the FPP -> FPP sats. Whereas the "house FPP drop" for such tourneys used to be massive, apparently they have now changed to a zero house edge apporach. Nice!
ScottyZ
Basically, the consequences of you calling with the 99 and losing to the small stack are too drastic. You are virtually guaranteed to have to make the next all-in stand in the tournament if you call here and lose. If you fold this hand, there are two players (the player currently all-in and MulberryJack) who are both scheduled to go all-in before you at your own table. There may even be others at other tables who are in worse shape than you are.
The play at the other table is completely insane. There is no reason for O.P.P. to play a hand. On the other hand, as the chip leader, there is no problem with limping in with the QQ here. It depends to some degree on how many chips the limper and monk3040 have, and leaving out the chip counts makes this particular play difficult to analyse. For example, if monk3040 is 2nd in chips and nearly tied with the chip leader, moving in with the QQ is awful. If monk3040 has a tiny stack, then O.P.P. is putting around 11K at risk by moving in here. Still highly questionable. Chip counts are EVERYTHING near the bubble of a satellite, often way more important than the hand you are currently holding.
The call with the KJ could possibly be the worst poker play I have seen this year. Maybe even ever.
For the last rules question, when an all-in bet re-opens the action to the original bettor/raiser varies from place to place. Raising all-in to an amount greater than or equal to the minimum required raise should always re-open the action.
I have seen the following versions of the rule:
1. Raising all-in less than the minimum never re-opens the action.
2. Raising all-in less than the minimum but more than half of the active bet re-opens the action.
3. Raising all-in always re-opens the action.
Cryptologic sites must use either #2 or #3 since the excess amount of the all-in raise was between $1.75 and $3.50. Contact their support for the definitive answer.
ScottyZ
Regarding the sattelite play, yes it was perhaps the worst play I have seen, I could not believe it. The chip leader had a 2-1 advantage over everyone so he could lose any all in once without an issue. The guy who called had over 11,000 chips. Blinds were 600/1200 and he had absolutely zero chance of busting out as there were many people who were already sitting out, including many with fewer chips. The guy who was down to 1100 chips facing a BB of 1200 chips in 2 hands was not upset. I still think it's a horrid play even if he calls with AA. Calling with KJ I don't quite know what to say.
They must have changed their payout structure recently, though for a while there were many 9 slot ones held early in the morning that had a nice FPP overlay for players ( I usually finished 10-18th in those ).
I have found that this rule is not very standardized, whether limit or no-limit. This is one way to do it.
If you want to talk limit, I have to add two more possible variations of the rule that I've seen to my previous list:
4. A player cannot raise all-in if the raise is insufficient.
5. Money less than a full bet does not play. In particular, a player may not be dealt in with less than one big blind.
As I have said, rulings will vary from place to place. Of course, if you believe that the "Robert's Rules" set is the appropriate rules standard, then we have:
"In limit play, an all-in wager of less than half a bet does not reopen the betting for any player who has already acted and is in the pot for all previous bets. A player facing less than half a bet may fold, call, or complete the wager. An all-in wager of a half a bet or more is treated as a full bet, and a player may fold, call, or make a full raise. (An example of a full raise is on a $20 betting round, raising a $15 all-in bet to $35)."
or for No-Limit/Pot-Limit games:
"All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. A player who has already acted and is not facing a fullsize wager may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the minimum bet (which is the amount of the minimum bring-in), or less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)"
Note that the Cryptologic method for handling the scenario in the OP disagrees with Robert's Rules.
ScottyZ