Calling All Aces.... need some tips!

harthgosh

Heya,

Basically here is the situation. I got a nice bankroll given to me to use playin some larger limit games online. 15-30 and up are the games. I am willing to go as high as 100 200.

Was wondering if you could give me some tips. I have tonnes of experience watching others play stupidly hi stakes online, and now im gonna take a real run at it myself. I have always been a tourney grinder and 10-20 and under grinder, doing very well in these endeavours.
I have been making sure my math is back to normal after getting corrupted (thats what happens when you hang out with big time players that tell you the wrong things.. I believe in some of my mentors their math has eroded because they are used to winnning and playing on the pro tour with such confidence and great results that it stopped mattering to them as none of my crew is known for being math wizards/junkies).
I am hoping for some sagacious advice from a proven champ such as you.

Thanks in advance,
hg

Unknown

Yo HG.  I don't have any experience in cash games above $30/$60, but the thing I've found most hard to deal with are the swings.  If you have a bad session, you have to try really really hard to resist the urge to play until you win it back.  I know that you know that poker is one long game, but sometimes if you have a bad night in a fairly high-stakes game, you'll dread the feeling of going to sleep knowing that you lost.  Don't.  You just have to accept the losses, and try again another day. 

Beating the games consistently makes this a lot easier to do.  I'm sure you'll do great.

As for online, I used to hate people who would hit and run.  Now, I don't hate them, and I do it myself, all the time.  If I "sit down" at a $30/$60 game and win a couple of pots right off the bat, I'll leave and take my newly-found 1K with me, unless the game is particularly good.  If it's average, or tougher than average, I'll just split, and go watch a movie or something.  I hate losing, I really do, so I do everything in my power not to lose.

I'm glad that you've spent a lot of time watching the bigger games.  That will help you, and you should watch for particular players who are 'regulars' and make good notes on them.  If they're good (which they probably are, if they're regulars) you should avoid playing at a table with more than two or three of them.

If your shorthanded game is strong, that's probably where you'll make the most money.  Not many people can play good shorthanded limit poker, so if you can, you will probably clean up.  If you have even just one "live one" at a shorthanded table, that player's money will be split between four or five of you, as opposed to eight or nine of you at a full table.

If you care about the money you're playing for too much, you'll lose.  I'm not sure exactly how high you're planning on playing.  At some point, every player who has a winning track record has to move up in levels.  It's evolutionary.  Just be careful you don't move up too high, too fast, because the feeling of being in over your head is not a pleasant one, and it will bleed off your chips.

Like I said, I think you'll do great.  Just try really really hard to win, and don't fuck up.    Good luck dude.

ScottyZ

Just try really really hard to win, and don't fuck up.

Nice. Very subtle, yet, in a way, also a very upfront and "in your face" approach improving your game. I think I've finally found the leak in my game.

Just kidding of course, great post A.A.

Here are some of my thoughts.

Dave Scharf and Bob Ciaffone (and lots of others I'm sure) have a suggestion which I think is great. Don't be afraid to take some "experimental" shots at higher limits. While all_aces' warning about moving up too high too soon is right on, I think it makes sense to set aside a relatively small fraction of your bankroll for taking a short-term shot at a higher limit. Let's say you play a lot of $5-$10 or $10-$20 and are pretty comfortable with your strategy and successful at those limits. While moving up to limits like $15-$30 or $20-$40 is the natural progression, don't be afraid to take a one-time shot at a much higher game like $30-$60 or $50-$100. You don't need the (theoretical) full 300BB bankroll to do this of course, as long as you have the discipline to stick with the stop-loss you have set for yourself and go back to your regular game.

Just make sure that if you set aside $X for this kind of endeavor that you will still consider your bankroll comfortable upon losing $X. If you have an extra $5K kicking around, there's nothing wrong with trying out a single $100-$200 session. But make sure the word "extra" really does apply, not only in terms of your numerical bankroll, but also (and probably way more importantly) the psychology of it. As all_aces alluded to, you're going to have to accept the reality of possibly going to bed that night stuck the full $5K. If the idea of this pretty much makes you feel like barfing, the risk of actually barfing is probably far to high to give this plan a go.

Don't get too intimidated by the good players when you move up. They are not where your profits are going to come from anyway, and your goal (at least initially) is to limit your losses to them. A major error I often make in limit poker, especially when moving up in limits, is trying to make a move on (who I think are) the most-skilled player(s) at the table. Of course, the players you should be making most of your moves on are the weakies, and more often than not the "move" you should make is simply playing value-oriented, straightforward poker. :cool:

I've always been amazed at the consistency of the play of the bad players when I have moved up in limits. It's as if the good players get better but the bad players are just about as bad as they always were. People who get drawn out on time after time playing $2-$4 and decide they want to move up to $10-$20 where there are "less suckouts" might be in for an eye-opener. In a "one-time shot" $15-$30 session I tried a while ago, I got beat by someone rivering a set of threes against my overpair. Of course, that's poker. And there's going to be plenty of "that's poker" whatever limit you're playing.

I remember thinking back on the hand later, and I mean no sarcasm here, I think my opponent played that particular hand very well. This actaully leads to a good point. Another thing that might more often make you sick at the higher limits is that you will be getting bad beats not just from the (I hate the fact that I can't use the word "donkey" anymore...) bad players, but also you'll start getting the best players at the table making miracle draws against you while they are running good, aggressive plays. Those are the kinds of beats that can really spin you. The best players in low or low-middle limit poker are probably not making hyper-aggressive 3-bets on the turn with an unimproved pair of twos. The best players in higher limit poker may be occasionally doing so. When the table expert spikes the river duece in this kind of spot, you might start questioning who is the pro and who is the (*sigh*... fine) donkey.

Also, stick with the games you like best. Know your speciality. Cash game or tournament. Full game, short handed or heads-up. Stud H/L, Dealer's Choice, or Texas Holdem. Limit or No-limit. Online or B&M. These choices are of course fundamental to all players (not just ones moving up in limits), but it's particularly improtant to stay in your own "comfort zone" when starting out at a higher game. Be realistic and honest with yourself about your own expertise.

Whatever limit you end up playing, play your best poker. This particularly applies if you are moving down after a (temporary, or otherwise) move up in limits.

Last, but not least, keep learning. Analyse your play. Look at or think back on previous hands you've played. Ask why your good plays were good and your bad plays were bad. Read about poker. Watch great poker players play, and watch bad ones too. In both cases, ask yourself what causes them to be that.

Make great decisions, and accept the fact that the rest is up to the cards. If people tell you "good luck", thank them and smile. You know better.

Good luck.

ScottyZ

harthgosh

Heya,

An official thanks for your time on this one Devin and Scotty.   So far im up some.   And yeah, I only play shorthanded games, I find the 10 handed way to boring and slow.
I find it extremely easy to maneouver and play the A++ game with such a large bankroll and no worries about the money. It makes me play the way I should be playin. 
A example demonstrating the kind of plays I freely make when I believe they are +EV.
                        -I raise preflop in the C/O, button calls.  I betout on the flop and am called, my opponent pops me on the turn when i bet, but I know he has nothing from the way he has been playin his hands (he is bluffing). I three bet and bet out the river and he folds.   Wherein plays like this it doesnt matter what I have, as he folded (busted draw in this case).  Luckily, I am extremely adept at picking the right spots (obviously this play can have its downfalls in the hands of some) to make these kinds of moves.  I think these moves dont really work playin lo limits (showdown poker), but in the hands of a good player with an unlimited bankroll at higher limits there can be alot of money earned from them <--- a position I am in!

In response to All Aces words on hit and runs.  This is a GREAT way to make money.  Mr. Luske reminded me of some good reasons for this.  1. You have made money  2. After a short while the good and even some average players may have figured you out. After all they do have a bunch of info on you now.  3.  If you do it alot people well associate you as a winner and fear you.  If they can't rememeber you ever staying long and busting, it adds to the respectometer.

Now something must be said for the guys that can just play 16 hours straght in casino or 17 hours straight playin 3 tables online.  Guys like T soprano and Exclusive on stars, or guys like Knish in brick rooms.  I just don't know whats to be said as I cannot do it yet.

Now back to busting some fish

laters
hg