How to adjust quickly to a new player?
Dave, was just wondering how you adjust in this situation.
When I was at Rama the other night playing 2/5 L, I sat at a table and had the luck to sit for 5 hands and watch the play. Once I jumped in, after a number of hands I was able to place a couple of players into sum what of a box and faired well.
After about 2.5 hours, a new player sat at the table, an older gentleman. I played 1 hand against him and won, he was fishing for two pair, he had midpair and was hoping his kicker would catch. After the hand, I went outside the room to have a smoke and watched him through the glass, I went back in and played some more.
I was in a very late position, dealt 8 9 D. Three players limped (I had put these players as 2 fish and a tuna), The older gentleman was BB, everyone else folded, so I call, SB folds, he raises. I feel that I know he doesn't have a pair, I put him on KX, QX. the 2 fish stay, the tuna drops, I call.
Flop comes, Ad Ks 10d...he checks, the tuna bets 2, I am thinking the tuna has a straight draw, so I raise, BB re-raises. Tuna calls, I cap it.
Turn comes 6c, BB bets???? Now I put him on K6 K10, tuna calls, I figure I got you beat if I hit the river, I raise, BB re-raises and the F&*Kin Tuna caps it???
I'm thinkin thanks guy's that's great, I call.
The river comes, 3d I now have the flush. BB checks Tuna is all in for 4, I re-raise to 9. Without hesitation the BB, re-raises me....now I stop, everything I have read in your book makes this guy a Tuna as well. But then I think, I haven't played that many hands with him, what if I am wrong and he to has the flush? I think it over and fold.
The all in tuna shows pocket 10's, the BB (newplayer) shows K 10 os......damn, I think to myself....I was right all along, I never should have folded, I should have re-raised.......
But should I have re-raised? I felt that I had the best hand and felt that I knew the players pretty well. But for that second I thought to myself, you haven't played him enough to put him in a box or assume what he has, although I was right.
I spent the next few hands really watching the plays and folding, trying to readjust to the new player. Did I do the right thing by thinking that after 8 to 10 hands that I was wrong on my assumptions of the player and to fold? And to wait until a better time to reel him in?
That was the first night that I really tried to understand the players rather than just the cards, so I know that I still have alot to learn about this skill. But the players that night were for some reason very easy to nail down and win against, but I had been playing them for awhile.
I guess my question is (or one of the one's here).....How do you adjust to a new player at a table you've been at for awhile? Was I right to feel that I hadn't played or studied him long enough to put him in a proper box? Was it a good fold, even though I would have have won?
When I was at Rama the other night playing 2/5 L, I sat at a table and had the luck to sit for 5 hands and watch the play. Once I jumped in, after a number of hands I was able to place a couple of players into sum what of a box and faired well.
After about 2.5 hours, a new player sat at the table, an older gentleman. I played 1 hand against him and won, he was fishing for two pair, he had midpair and was hoping his kicker would catch. After the hand, I went outside the room to have a smoke and watched him through the glass, I went back in and played some more.
I was in a very late position, dealt 8 9 D. Three players limped (I had put these players as 2 fish and a tuna), The older gentleman was BB, everyone else folded, so I call, SB folds, he raises. I feel that I know he doesn't have a pair, I put him on KX, QX. the 2 fish stay, the tuna drops, I call.
Flop comes, Ad Ks 10d...he checks, the tuna bets 2, I am thinking the tuna has a straight draw, so I raise, BB re-raises. Tuna calls, I cap it.
Turn comes 6c, BB bets???? Now I put him on K6 K10, tuna calls, I figure I got you beat if I hit the river, I raise, BB re-raises and the F&*Kin Tuna caps it???
I'm thinkin thanks guy's that's great, I call.
The river comes, 3d I now have the flush. BB checks Tuna is all in for 4, I re-raise to 9. Without hesitation the BB, re-raises me....now I stop, everything I have read in your book makes this guy a Tuna as well. But then I think, I haven't played that many hands with him, what if I am wrong and he to has the flush? I think it over and fold.
The all in tuna shows pocket 10's, the BB (newplayer) shows K 10 os......damn, I think to myself....I was right all along, I never should have folded, I should have re-raised.......
But should I have re-raised? I felt that I had the best hand and felt that I knew the players pretty well. But for that second I thought to myself, you haven't played him enough to put him in a box or assume what he has, although I was right.
I spent the next few hands really watching the plays and folding, trying to readjust to the new player. Did I do the right thing by thinking that after 8 to 10 hands that I was wrong on my assumptions of the player and to fold? And to wait until a better time to reel him in?
That was the first night that I really tried to understand the players rather than just the cards, so I know that I still have alot to learn about this skill. But the players that night were for some reason very easy to nail down and win against, but I had been playing them for awhile.
I guess my question is (or one of the one's here).....How do you adjust to a new player at a table you've been at for awhile? Was I right to feel that I hadn't played or studied him long enough to put him in a proper box? Was it a good fold, even though I would have have won?
Comments
Limit and all that counting. I tallied 9.5 small bets preflop, 12 small bets on flop = ~ 10 BB + another 12 BB on turn = 22BB, and on river another 6BB with a side pot. Is this not a big pot? You didn't call 1 more BB when there are 28 out there? I believe it's very expensive to release a big pot here.
I know you're focusing on putting people in a box but at this juncture I have to know what the new guy has. I believe it's around 1 in 6 someone would also have a flush. Call.
In this particular hand, I think that folding for the last $5 was a big mistake. It's a "pot too big" call. Because of the size of the pot, you need less than a 10% chance of having the best hand to make calling here correct. My feeling is that your hand will be good more than 3/4 of the time here, probably even in the 90% range.
If you were having second thoughts on the river, the better way to spend the $9 would be to have called the all-in and the additional $5 raise the BB would (presumably) make. This way, you'd be putting in the same amount of money on the river while getting to show down your hand rather than folding it.
I think you played a standard, non-nut flush draw too aggressively.
The fundamental principles of LLHE are (I think) aquiring the best hand cheaply and getting a lot of money in when you do believe your hand is best. You have done alomost exactly the opposite here, jamming the pot on betting rounds where your are a 4-1 dog to improve on the next card, and actually giving up on the hand at the point where it is probably best.
Putting in one raise on the flop seems reasonable, but capping both the flop and turn is going a little overboard I think. On the turn, I simply would have called. On the river, I would have probably put in a raise and just called a check-reraise. Had the board instead paired when making my flush, I would have just called any number of river bets.
Why put all that money in before the river on the draw and give up on the hand when the draw actually does get there? In this particular hand, all of your aggressive actions on the flop and turn seem to have been lose-lose propositions.
ScottyZ
LOL, haven't heard that for awhile
It was a big pot, and I knew as I folded I should have stayed. But I think that I just over analized and was thinking to much. My gut said call, but I must admit, I got scared, and all I could think was "there is no shame in folding if you feel you are beat", it was tuff to fold, but it was harder to know that what I origanally thought about the player was right.
On the bright side, it reminded me that even though I did better (money wise) on that night after reading and re-reading Dave's book, that I still have a long way to go before I can consider myself a profitable and good LLHE player.
Que sera sera, what ever will be will be. It will be a long road, but I am enjoying it.
Terrible river fold. It's 2/5 and even if you lose flush over flush, you gotta pay that bet off, you need to be good here less than 10% of the time for the call to be longterm profitable.. and on an unpaired board, yer good here like 80%-85% if not more.
I'm likely calling here with NO pair and A high
The pot is FAR TOO BIG
Capping the flop is good. 35% pot equity against 2 opponents.. Maybe marginal if you put your opponent on a set or something, but you'll also be forcing them to call bets to the bitter end if they don't improve and you do..
You think your typical 2/5 opponents cap flops and turns while they can't beat Ace high? No way..
BUT, I think you know what I'm getting at.
There's no choice, even if you're beat with your flush, you CALL
I tend to lean towards Scotty's opinion that it's a little excessive. I think 35% is probably uber best case scenario (assuming opponents don't have big redraws against you), and in a few cases I can see getting money in there with virtually no outs (against a monster draw like KQd for example). Running the actual numbers on the hand in question the equity varied from 26.5 - 29.5 equity depending on if the KT had a backdoor diamond draw.
The reasons I could see capping (besides the for value argument which I think is borderline):
1) To potentially slow at least one of them down on the turn (which actually was the case, and I think it's pretty much agreed calling to close the turn betting would have been better).
2) To create a reckless table image (for the odd LL player that pays any attention to other players).
Just my 2 cents...
The only bonus to that hand was, the other players for several other hands would stick it out thinking I would fold under pressure, and that payed off.
I guess what I really want to know is, regardless of the hand at issue or monies in the pot and pot odds etc. Should I have spent more time adjusting to the "new player" at the table as to prevent something like this happening? Was it just a complete mistake upon myself to get involved and second guess myself? How do you(s) adjust to a new player, time wise? Do you play a hand like that to see what she/he is about? Do you wait it out to see what she/he is about against other players? Or is that just a decision that you have to make personally at the table?
At this limit, once you have your opponents properly "boxed up" they aren't likelt to change. As you go higher players will tend to get more cagey and tend to change gears more often.
That is a highly counter intuitive read. Raising out of the big-bling USUALLY represent a lot of strength. But, OK. If he will raise with Kx or Qx in the BB I think there are A LOT of hands he will raise with. In other words, he LIKES to gamble it up. It will be very hard to put this player firmly on a hand.
Hmm.... I don't understand your raise. You think the O-tuna has a straight draw. Fair enough, you have have 9 high. You do NOT have the best hand right now. You may be a favourite over some odd hands, but you can't really give yourself more than a basic flush draw. Moreover, you do NOT want to drop the BB. You WANT his call. I think calling would have been superior here. Now... a pre-flop raiser has checked and then three bet... AAALLLAAARRRRMMMMM. I am putting him on AK or a set almost for sure. Your cap isn't a bad play, if you are thinking about making it as a free card play, but in THIS game THESE players are not going to fold. There WILL be a showdown. You have NO fold equity. Bet the best -- good draw to invest -- fold all the rest. You fall into the second category. Raising seems a bad idea. To do so there must be some compelling reasons.
This is what I would expect him to do. The previous street he check-raised a raise.
This is exaclty why you should NOT raise in this spot. If you make your hand you will win. But, if you miss your hand you will lose. You want a cheap look at it. They gave you a cheap look and you re-opened the betting. Ouch.
Well... automatic call, I'm afraid. You went four bets on the turn to hit your hand and then folded to a single raise on the river WHEN you made your hand??? If you are playing 4 bets on the turn there is no way you should then, so easily, reverse your thinking and lay down for a single bet.
About what I woudl have guessed... two big hands. Or, two hands that they THINK are big hands. But, with a straight possible on board, both of these buys went nits. There is NO WAY that they are ever folding, you should not be playing weak draws aggressively at these players. Play them cheaply and make them pay when you hit.
No. But a call seems mandatory.
My rule is that I have every opponent in a box after two laps of the button. They might not be the right boxes, nonetheless, I am forming some very firm ideas after two laps and I adjust from there. Should you have given yourself more time? Probably. However, looking at the hand, I am wondering whether the issue isn't that you need more experience to understand the shape and dimension of typical boxes. When it comes to categorizing players, you can't bear experience. Experience (coupled with study) will teach you a lot of pattern recognition. Patterns are what, ultimately, define players. I don't think the problem with this hand was how quickly you tried to put these opponents in boxes. I think that it was that you were missinterpretting the patterns.
I never play a hand "to see what someone's about." There are lots of ways to get that information and see the patterns without spening my cash to do so. Let someone else spend it.
In terms of the free card play, I am thinking that 2-betting is much more likely to get you the free card than 4-betting. This is why I thought raising one time on the flop was a reasonable alternative to calling, but capping it might not be too great. Calling, of course, is a very good option too.
When the BB check-reraises to 3 bets, there is no way I would expect him to check the turn. As you mentioned, the BB is showing (what he thinks is) real strength by check-reraising. I think he would almost surely bet the turn regardless of the flop betting being capped or just called at 3 bets.
Making it 2 bets to try to get a free card on the turn has a better chance of working IMO. The BB could very well fold for all we know.1 If both opponents call, the middle player may (depending on his hand strength) either worry about his hand and check it, or check to try to trap both active opponents for a value check-raise on the turn.
The more I keep thinking about this hand, the more I keep thinking "No fancy plays." :cool:
ScottyZ
1Actually, after checking the flop as the pre-flop raiser, he's more likely than usual to just check-call on the flop with a powerhouse like AA with the intention of check-raising the turn. Making it 2 bets may discourage the middle player from betting again on the turn.
AAhhhhhh, the two I forgot. After reading both Dave's and Scotty's posts, I realized that I was looking to hit both players hard with a "fancy play", and now realize that they would have done it for me and all I would have had to do was call until I hit my card.
Stupid, stupid, stupid. My wife can't believe that I even admitted this to you guy's.
Admitting it is the first step. Now there are only eleven more steps to salvation.
Absolutely hate the raise on the turn
Can't even imagine folding in that spot, nothing about the way that the other players played that hand reads as a flush. In reality your crazy raises earlier concealed your drawing hand well, got people to pay you off and then you folded.
Pokerkid
Pokerkid
Doesnt this hand establish that Hero needs to work on his game a bit more? How can moving up help?
Hero agree's, before I move up, I want to make sure that I am not making stupid "fancy plays" and that I have developed a solid game.
I do agree that higher levels have better players and makes it easier to play a solid game, but I don't think that my game is solid enough to chance it.