Would you?
Would you call all in with the following scenario?
A6 spades hole cards
Flop- 4s 7s 2d
Turn- 5h
This is where I was faced with going all in to one bettor, or folding what I knew would be the winning hand "if" one of my outs came up. I had an open ended straight draw, a nut flush draw, and an Ace high. There were only 2 of us left in the hand at this point and the other guy bet all in on the turn.
I called.
River card was a J I think, which didn't help either of us. The other player it turned out, was bluffing with a 9 10 off. I took the pot with A high. Then he said that there is no way I should have called his all in bet (he had more chips than me) and I should have folded my hand. Maybe this is why I don't have a bulging bankroll, with a hand like that, should I have folded?
A6 spades hole cards
Flop- 4s 7s 2d
Turn- 5h
This is where I was faced with going all in to one bettor, or folding what I knew would be the winning hand "if" one of my outs came up. I had an open ended straight draw, a nut flush draw, and an Ace high. There were only 2 of us left in the hand at this point and the other guy bet all in on the turn.
I called.
River card was a J I think, which didn't help either of us. The other player it turned out, was bluffing with a 9 10 off. I took the pot with A high. Then he said that there is no way I should have called his all in bet (he had more chips than me) and I should have folded my hand. Maybe this is why I don't have a bulging bankroll, with a hand like that, should I have folded?
Comments
factor this, 8 flush outs (that's the average), 6 cards for the straight, 3 outs if the A is live.
that's 17 outs.
You also have the 6 for 'outs', but that doesn't really matter.
He bluffed, you called it with alot of outs.
I don't see where you went wrong at all.
I find myself, after a bad beat, wanting to type in something like that myself...but I force myself to 'replay' the hand from the winners seat and almost always there's a good reason they are in the hand.
He made a good bluff attempt, made it expensive for you, you figured you had the outs and you read him right, great job!
Since this is an all-in call or fold decision, this hand is pretty easy to analyse1 by just working out the pot odds compared to your drawing odds. This hand is pretty much impossible to analyse without knowing the pot and bet sizes.
ScottyZ
1In terms of EV only, if this is a tournament.
(1) How much is in the pot
(2) How much is his all-in bet
(3) How much is in your stack
(4) Is this a tournament?
(5) If this is a tournament then where are we at? On more seat to the money?
I do not like going out of a tournament by calling all-in with a draw. So, unless I am being offered rather spectacular odds on the call I generally prefer to fold.
And, as for him comment that "there is no way you should have called" I find there to be a common confusion on this point.
Prior to you actually making the call, it is a matter of theory. After considering the range of hands he might have, bet sizes ,etc you can determine "in theory" if it is a good call or not. Once you actually make the call, it's not theory anymore. So, when he rolls over T-9 then he should say, "Nice call." After all, it was, as a matter of fact, not theory, a nice call.
You question is, "Was is a nice call in theory?" To answer that, we need a lot more info.
First off let me say all the chips had the same denomination. There were 8 of us playing, we divided up a set of 300 chips between ourselves (37 each). So for the sake of argument let's say each chip was worth $1.00.
(1) There was about 40 chips in the pot after the flop
(2) I bet 10 more on the turn, he went all in with about 70 chips
(3) For his all in bet I had 43 more chips
(4) It was tournament based, but a family game. Playing more for bragging rights than cash.
(5) At this point of the tourney I was in 3rd position. The other player was chip leader.
It's pretty sad that you'd get berated at a low (or no) stakes family game to the point where you'd ask for hand analysis on an internet forum.
Okay, the actual pot odds in question look like calling 43 to win 103. That's about 2.4 to 1 for the pot odds.
Assume you are not currently winning the hand. The analysis is different if your opponent is a bluffing station, or you have some other specific reason (betting pattern, etc) to think your opponent is bluffing.
From 46 unknown cards, you have 15 outs which are probably clean. You may have 18 outs, as an Ace might be good too.
If you have 18 outs, your drawing odds are about 1.5 to 1. With only 15 clean outs, your drawing odds deteriorate to about 2.1 to 1.
Though high variance, this still appears to me to be a correct call.
With such a huge draw on the turn (combined with an outside chance of your hand being good), I think the superior play would have been simply moving all-in yourself. This is assuming that you were first to act on the turn and that the action was already heads-up. If you were actually last to act on the turn, then I think that betting (either 10 chips or all-in) is a poor play.
ScottyZ