Irunit4times Fallsview WPT 2016 Bap!

$1,100 Fallsview Main Event (markup = $33) Total $1133

2.5% = $28.33
5% = $56.65
10% = $113.30
15% = $169.95
20% = $226.60

5% - Hobbes PD
5% Swap - Blondefish
5% Swap - Teo
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Comments

  • pkrfce9pkrfce9 SHIP IT, BITCHES!
    Good luck man. I hope you win BIG!

    Bfillmaff came to mind and I smiled at the thought. That sick son of a bitch.
  • Irunit4timesIrunit4times Full PFC Member
    Lol thank you, I will do my best. Are you playing the fallsview this year?
  • HobbesHobbes PFC Asshole and Commander
    5% of the main

    Emt details needed
  • Irunit4timesIrunit4times Full PFC Member
    Booked thank you.
  • HobbesHobbes PFC Asshole and Commander
    Shipped
  • Irunit4timesIrunit4times Full PFC Member
    Received, thank you!
  • BfillmaffBfillmaff High Roller.
    Don't mean to pick it apart but I'm not too sure about that math for the satellite package.

    GL though... go get that DIAPER MONEY!!
    pkrfce9 wrote: »
    Bfillmaff came to mind and I smiled at the thought. That sick son of a bitch.
  • Irunit4timesIrunit4times Full PFC Member
    Yah, no problem I understand that for most people, its not the ideal situation, and frankly, I can afford to play those on my own, the only real thinking is this, if I play those on my own and qualify, then I would be selling the bap at full ticket price so $2575 with markup. A 2.5% stakes would cost $64.38 where as in the super satellite package it's only $10.30. Both ways end up with the same final payouts if I cash in the main event, so yes ultimately it seems -EV in the satellite pricing, if I go on to cash its a pretty good deal.

    I would never sell my action of a main event satellite at face value or near it because for $150 id be giving up thousands in a large cash. Its just a way for anyone willing to take a risk, hence a BAP is always risky, for a +EV staking deal if you feel I am good enough to cash in a main event.

    Its not for everyone, and if I do win the seat, then I am going to sell my action there, and if it please people to pay that price I am all for it. I just thought I would give an option to those who would want to pay less than a full stake price for a main event but still end up with the same reward. In fact, by allowing myself to get staked at the super satellite prices, I am taking money out of my pocket potentially.

    Just my .02 and not forcing anybody to like it or do it, just the way I see things and giving the option.
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish Accidental Poker Tourist
    Just like I have with a couple of the OPT players, are you interested in a 5% swap (net of $1100 buy-in)? As I posted in Staking Guidelines, it's better to have swaps NET of buy-in if you also have a BAP &/or satellite equity.
    For the main events I will be looking to sell/swap up to 50% total.
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9 SHIP IT, BITCHES!
    Your logic is sound since you are 100% going to win the satellite seat.

    Go get em!
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9 SHIP IT, BITCHES!
    Bfillmaff wrote: »
    Don't mean to pick it apart but I'm not too sure about that math

    Cmon, don't keep me waiting.
  • Irunit4timesIrunit4times Full PFC Member
    Yes blondefish, I am willing to swap 5% with you! I will see you tonight and we can discuss!
  • Irunit4timesIrunit4times Full PFC Member
    Adjusted total BAP percentage being sold from 50% to 30% on the request of my wife who says if for any reason I manage to bink it, baby could use that money LMAO. She understands value now doesn't she. She says, you've already won that seat and for less, why would you sell any at all. So I discussed and then shes like okay, swap some and sell just a little lol. So I am.
  • Irunit4timesIrunit4times Full PFC Member
    pkrfce9 wrote: »
    Your logic is sound since you are 100% going to win the satellite seat.

    Go get em!

    Why thank you. Well the only satellite I plan to win is the $550 as I plan to bink the $1100 lol and be unavailable to play the $275.
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9 SHIP IT, BITCHES!
    Sounds like a plan.
  • moosemoose alces alces
    FYI To charge a main event markup for a satellite means you should be guaranteeing that you are going to buy in regardless. In other words you can charge any markup you like for the main event and then try to save money by qualifying through a satellite but to do it the other way round is completely ridiculous. You are being mocked very heavily right now by everyone at CardDeads cash game and are headed towards becoming your own poker internet meme.
  • Irunit4timesIrunit4times Full PFC Member
    So let me start by saying I would expect nothing less from CardDead, he has shown his true colours to me so I have no problem being the target of your entertainment for the night because I know the type of person its coming from. As for the rest, by all means, joke about it, do as you please, to come on here and to call me out is interesting though. I am not holding a gun to anyones head, forcing, or even telling them that its a great money making adventure for them, it was merely an option and nothing else. I lose money and equity by offering my percentage at the satellite cost if I do satellite in and win.

    How is it exactly that I am freerolling? My total buy in is $825 my actual cost, which I am guaranteed to play unless I am still in the prior tournament. With the markup the total buy in is $1237. I am selling only 15% which totals $185.55. So I am still buying in for $639.45 of my own money, so I guess thats basically freerolling :s

    Why would I guarantee to play a tournament for a small markup on a satellite tournament, I am guaranteeing you the same equity in the main event if I cash based on a much smaller tournament with a markup, this makes no sense, I am better off to not sell any action at any markup and then when/if I win a seat sell it at full value with a small markup like the other main and then make more money that way. So you think as a player it makes more sense to sell my satellite equity par for par and give up that much equity in the main event. Thats insane. As an investor, sure, thats a great deal, but it needs to be equally profitable for player and investor, and I believe that it still is just that. Even if I dont win the $575 seat and won the $275 seat and min cashed, your equity still leaves a good profit. Again, nobody is forced to buy or participate, these are options, and if people do not like it, they do not buy or participate. I am fine with that. Maybe I should just take it down and delete it, which gives me even more drive to win my seat and go on to cash.

    You can mock it all you want, I am not saying its the greatest idea ever, but its not as crazy as you may think. How about a player that gets staked 100% but only gets to keep 10-20% of any winnings and 80-90% go to the investor. In this scenario I have no risk, complete freeroll. In this scenario I am guaranteeing to play the satellites if I can and I am still putting up like 77% of the total buy in. I have risk involved too, and I would think that someone who still has a risk to themselves would be more driven to get a return, as they are more impacted by the outcome.

    Any staking venture is a risk, and by putting together a bap as a player its a way to hedge your own playing so try and eliminate variance over the long run and providing potential value for the investor. In this scenario there is value because your buying a percentage of the $275 satellite, but virtually by way of its a must play and direct buy in to the next tournament, you are buying a piece at a deeply discounted rate vs the actual main event buy in price. If the $275 buy in was for a cash payout tournament, then the markup would be crazy as the payouts would never be in anyones favour unless I am favourtite to take it down.

    I find it funny that you sit there and mock, but there are none of those players with the exception of 1 that offers baps online, and for the most part plays any real tournaments at all. I can quite simply buy in to these tournaments directly but obviously from day one on here I have always liked the idea of selling action, not so much for the money I get back out of it, but as much as I would like to cash and do well and be able to earn some others some money and have others be able to share in any success I may have. If you look back on previous baps, some ive made money, some I havnt, some I have freerolled guys for supporting me. This is by no means a money making venture for me. But you are entitled to feel differently.

    Ultimately I am playing these tournaments often now, or as much as I can, and I like to give the opportunity to others to have a chance to share in the success I may have. But if my ideas lead me to be mocked at games by guys who don't "put up" they would rather shit on the ideas of others, I can simply take this bap down and no problem keeping any winnings to myself. In fact my thought of even giving up equity in a main event at a satellite price was ludacris to me, but I thought some people may be able to see value in that and if they do, great, if not, no support, either way I am fine with it.

    You wonder why people on here come and go, because when people try to offer suggestions, or put ideas that the older "core" group don't like, its very openly mocked and driven out. This is supposed to be a community for players to share and discuss, if you don't like my ideas, discuss, as you would the logic behind a hand, or a debate you seem so fit to have on a poker site about religion and if god exists, but to come on here insulting me and telling me that im the brunt of a joke and the target of a new poker meme is disgusting as I have done nothing wrong to deserve that and only ever tried to be constructive and part of this forum.

    Half the people on here only ever play home games, so thats fine, but the small few actually travel to events, or play live games, discuss it, offer opportunties to support them, discuss tournaments of value and structures and the like. Its interesting that those players are so openly mocked by players that are only ever found at the tables of a basement game. Poker is poker and your entitled to your opinions, but the ones actually out there, playing the live games, telling their stories and trip reports, putting hand analysis discussions and offering baps, deserve a little more respect then that. Otherwise turn thise site into a damn hangout group chat and get rid of the association to poker, because it's disgusting how I have seen players treated on here in the past.

    Myself at this moment, blondefish in the past, many players new coming on to post about dreams and aspiring to be pro, or theories about games, and actual poker talk, constantly shit on. I find it sad, and disgusting. Which will again lead me to take a hiatus from this site, and frankly even shut down my poker group.

    As the money hungry guy that I am, I run all those games out of my own house, with cards, tables, chairs, etc that I have paid for, a site that I pay monthly for, running games with no rake of any kind to real tournaments. But with the attitudes I have seen on here, I am very uninterested about even bothering anymore, especially with my child on the way, I would rather deal with one child opposed to the antics of many.

    Do as you wish with this post, I am pretty well done now. I may just delete entire bap to be honest, refund Hobbes his money and keep my swaps with the players I know who actually play the events.

    Rant Over.
  • BfillmaffBfillmaff High Roller.
    Ah I don't think it was meant to be taken personally Alex. Just an odd BAP.

    (That's all the mediating I can do for now, I just gave some old lady 4 buyins...)


    edit: correction: 3 buy ins to the old lady, 1 buy in to the old man. FU comp!
  • moosemoose alces alces
    Without even reading your diatribe...your excitement has gotten the better of your judgement. This has nothing to do with Carddead. Nobody at the cash game had even read your thread until it was brought up by bfillmaff and pkrfce9. You ignored bfillmaff and continued to try and justify yourself instead and couldn't even read the sarcasm from pkrfce9.

    yr7ao.jpgvia Imgflip Meme Maker
  • moosemoose alces alces
    After reading your lengthy post, you seem to have confused potential winnings and equity, and also equity and markup. A BAP is based on the cost of entry, not potential winnings because the prize pool is generated from the buyins and therefore your equity in the tournament is equal to your buyin. Just because you plan to win a satellite and use the funds to enter a larger tourney may increase the potential winnings but it does not change the equity at all. Your chances of cashing overall remain the same. It would be the equivalent of OLG having variable pricing on LottoMax based on the size of the prize pool. You simply can not charge a higher price just because the potential winnings are higher. You may think that it provides added value but it does not.

    Your markup represents that your chances of cashing is better than the rest of the field and therefore represents added value. Markup is not related to equity at all. If anything, your risk is higher because winning a satellite does not provide any cash out to the BAPers and depends on you subsequently cashing. Instead you propose to charge a premium as if your chances suddenly improve, just because you win a satellite ticket.
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9 SHIP IT, BITCHES!
    moose wrote: »
    A BAP is based on the cost of entry, not potential winnings because the prize pool is generated from the buyins and therefore your equity in the tournament is equal to your buyin.
    Don't forget to factor the rake into all this. Higher rake makes a game harder to beat.
    moose wrote: »
    Just because you plan to win a satellite and use the funds to enter a larger tourney may increase the potential winnings but it does not change the equity at all. Your chances of cashing overall remain the same.
    Good point.
    moose wrote: »
    Your markup represents that your chances of cashing is better than the rest of the field and therefore represents added value.
    I add the rake and markup together and try to see if this investment has a good chance to be profitable. Like if all I ever did was invest in these, would I show a profit over 10 years?

    So boil it all down and your bap to the main seems like it has a reasonable chance to be profitable for investors with rake and markup being < 15% I think, coupled with the idea that you are a better than average player.

    With your satellite bap I can't see this being long term profitable for investors. I don't know what the pros can charge for markup but I would be surprised if they could get this much. I look at the rake on the satellite and main, the staff gratuity and add in the markup to get an idea of the overall 'rake'. Then I try to determine if it can be profitable, given the player.

    Anyway, you are a good tourney player and a better investment than others. Good luck.
  • compueasecompuease Administrator
    Can't we all just get along!!

    For the record, I disliked Moose's original post and Irunit's response but do agree in principle with Moose's and pkrfce's subsequent explanation, just not the way Moose originally made his point, it was a little harsh imo..

    I don't recall anyone mocking you but the consensus at the table certainly was questionable re the way you structured the bap...

    I agree you can charge whatever markup you want on an individual tournament and it's up to the individual investor to decide on value provided thereof, however marking up a satellite based on perceived winnings in the main is just not right. I have bapped satellite's before, no markup at all just to reduce variance, but cannot justify any more than your standard markup would be if you were buying directly into the main.
  • moosemoose alces alces
    Rake reduces everyone's equity. By entering a tournament that has 10% rake means you must feel you are already 10% better than the field. Adding markup reduces the BAPers equity and increases the player's. Having confidence in oneself is great but show a little humility.

    Providing a BAP reduces your variance and benefits you. Charging a markup for people to provide that benefit is just greed and is not of added value unless you feel that somehow you are severely underestimating your chances of cashing over the field. Pros can charge a markup because they have a demonstratable track record of profitability. Providing a lengthy post about playing well and running bad as justification for your markup is just silly. Pros can afford to buy into a tournament directly too but do equity swaps and a sell action not out of the goodness of their hearts but to reduce their variance.

    People like to participate in BAPs on this forum because they do support your dreams and are trying to help you get there. To claim otherwise and say that people spit on players with dreams is ridiculous. This isn't Mean Girls. There isn't a group out there out to get you and trying to drag you down.

    I made the post because I felt you should know what a group of poker players, just as experienced, if not more than you were saying about your BAP. Mostly because I at least have the integrity to tell you to your face and also because if you do want people to help you in your dreams that you have to adjust your thinking.
  • compueasecompuease Administrator
    To be honest I think that most of the bap's on here are more for the interest in following the progress via regular updates, twitter, etc not because anyone, either buyer or seller, are really gaining much else. That's the way it used to be but the trend in the last few years has changed, the updates are few and far between, if we get them at all. I would like to see people providing baps on here to try and provide better updates, write ups, etc. Some do excellent ones, we all know who they are, but some just give a result, if we're lucky..
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9 SHIP IT, BITCHES!
    I like the points about supporting dreams and wanting to follow the updates, etc.

    You really can't put a price on those with my economic model but they certainly have value.

    This is a useful discussion.
  • Card DeadCard Dead Sorry sir, I have 6 Aces!
    Since I got dragged into this, my official opinion is as follows:

    The effective rake to your investors is 33% (10% event rake + 23% MU). This means that you have to have an average cash out about $2000, 1 out of 3 times, for people to break even on your BAP.

    Based on your post, you do not have the track record for people to break even on this model. Even players with much longer and stronger tournament careers do not charge this kind on MU. Look at DJS BAP - no extra MU for the $275 satty. Even if you feel you have a 60% chance of getting thru the satellites and a 30% chance of cashing in the mains, that only puts you at cashing 18% of the time.

    So while I don't necessarily think you're trying to rip people off on purpose, it definitely seems like a case of overconfidence at the least, which is where most of the disbelief originated.
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9 SHIP IT, BITCHES!
    I spoke to alex about this at some length yesterday. I can see his point that this is a cheap way for someone to have a chance at a big score. Kind of along the lines of buying a lottery ticket but a lot nicer odds.

    I think if I was selling action on a satellite I could justify charging a mu since it would take a lot of my time and effort to get to 2 separate events to potentially make $$$ for my supporters. At this point I'm happy to have any support at all until I can show consistent results but that is another story.

    Like alex said, if you are interested, that's his price because he doesn't really need to sell any of his satellite action. And that is fine. Take it or leave it. I don't think he's doing a hard sell on this.

    The markup on his main event action seems very reasonable to me. From the way I saw him build his stack early on at Rama, the kid has a decent shot to do well.
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012 Local Celebrity
    Here's the real investor problem in all of this:

    If your roll is such that you have to BAP a satellite, your comfort level in the target event has an assumption of discomfort. This intuitively reduces your ROI. In this case you have 2 options.

    1) BAP the satty and transfer the % purchased over to the target event. This is advantageous for the buyer, sure, but the seller is the one that can't manage full buyin.

    2) BAP the satty and don't play the target event, selling the seat and paying out on the profit. This is less enticing as a buyer because my investment ceiling is capped.

    What's been proposed has some logic behind it, but it's flawed and is a poor buyer environment.
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9 SHIP IT, BITCHES!
    Card Dead wrote: »
    The effective rake to your investors is 33% (10% event rake + 23% MU). This means that you have to have an average cash out about $2000, 1 out of 3 times, for people to break even on your BAP.

    I question this math too. What about rake on the satellite? I thought the whole thing was higher but I haven't dug into this.
  • Card DeadCard Dead Sorry sir, I have 6 Aces!
    pkrfce9 wrote: »
    I question this math too. What about rake on the satellite? I thought the whole thing was higher but I haven't dug into this.

    You only pay rake once - on the satty. The rake on the ME is included in your satty winnings. Rake on both super sattys and MEs is 10%, not including staff gratuities.
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