Ante-Up Tournament Structure

ZithalZithal
in General Poker Chat
Hey all,

Going to be running an Ante-Up tournament. (NLHE with Ante's instead of blinds, as debuted in the WSOP this year)

Wanted to get comments on a proposed structure. Here are my goals..

- I want there to be enough play in the early levels that it's not a huge all in fest by level 3. Unless we bring out red chips, starting at a 25 ante puts 200 chips on the table each hand, which is almost the same amount as level 4 (75-150) in one of my regular tournaments.

- It needs to excelerate quickly after a while. With 5,000 starting chips the game usually ends at the 1,500-3,000 level, so that's what I'm shooting for, for level 14 (5 hours in).

- Each level is 20 minutes, there are usually a couple of 15 minute breaks thrown in.

SCHEDULE A:

1: 25
2: 25
3: 50
4: 50
5: 75
<break, colour out 25 chips>
6: 100
7: 200
8: 300
9: 400
10: 600
11: 800
12: 1200
13: 2000
14: 3000
15: 5000

Thoughts?

Comments

  • ZithalZithal
    Quick alternate that likely doesn't play much different, but let's me colour out 100 chips sooner..

    Let's call it SCHEDULE B

    1: 25
    2: 25
    3: 50
    4: 50
    5: 75
    <break, colour out 25 chips>
    6: 100
    7: 200
    8: 300
    9: 400
    10: 600
    <break, colour out 100>
    11: 1000
    12: 1500
    13: 2000
    14: 3000
    15: 5000
  • DataMnDataMn
    I would leave in the 25 chips for a while longer to lessen the blow of the jumps.

    Moving the blind times to 15 minutes, with smaller jumps would probably get rid of some of the large gaps. (100 to 200, 1200 to 2000). Something like:

    25
    25
    50
    50
    75
    100
    150
    200
    300
    400
    600
    900
    1200
    1500
    2000
    3000
    4000
    5000
    6000

    This would still be done in around 4 hours.

    Just my $0.02

    Al
  • ZithalZithal
    I like the 15 minute level idea. We can get in 20 levels in the span of a usual 15 and, as you said, lessen the blow of some of the larger gaps.
  • moosemoose
    First level use a $100 button ante.
  • BrennerMBrennerM
    If you do a 5,000 starting stack, I predict this will be over well before level 14. The 1500-3000-500 level costs 8500 per orbit for an 8-handed table. The 3000 ante level would cost 24000 per orbit. My recommendation is to slow down the jumps even more, or just use a bigger starting stack (at least double the 5000, if not triple).
  • DataMnDataMn
    Yes, but that is at an 8 player table. Once you hit level 12, 13 and 14 it will probably be less than 8 handed, which means less money goes in the middle. In a regular tourney the blinds always go in no matter how many players there are. With an ante only lessening the number of players lessens the amount in the pot too.

    At 400/1500/3000 5300 chips go in the pot when it is heads up, which is about the same at the 6000 that would go in at Level 14.
  • moosemoose
    Regardless of the number of players at a table, Mike is correct. It is way more spendy per hand.
  • DataMnDataMn
    If there are 2 players left at 400/1500/3000 they put in 5300 (which is where he wants it to be at level 14)

    If there are 2 players left at an ante tourney with an ante of 3000 they put in 6000

    How is it WAY more spendy??
  • moosemoose
    Because every hand up to reaching heads up will cost more than a traditional tourney. The starting pots will be far larger and larger preflop raises will be needed. Mike is right, it will reach heads up way before this point.

    Even if it does, you neglect the fact that the difference of 700 chips is not made up by both players. In a blind structure the small blind must put in an extra 1500 in order to play. In an ante structure folding and saving those chips for a better hand is not an option. Every 10 hands there has been an extra 7000 chips contested and 60000 chips overall. Those chips have been contributed equally by both players. When the chip stacks are unequal this will have a greater effect on the shorter stacked player. Whereas in a blind structure, if a player folds the small blind he can conserve chips, so yes it is way more spendy.
  • BrennerMBrennerM
    Ignoring the higher levels for now because shorter tables confuses things, just look at the 10th level (I'm using Al's structure and 8-handed). Cost per round would be 400*8 = 3200. In Rob's normal blind structure I believe the 10th level is 400-800-100 which is a min cost of 2000 per round. Normally we still have at least one full table at this point so action will be dramatically increased when people have to pay 3200 per round vs 2000 per round, meaning the tourney will end quite a bit sooner than normal because everyone's "I gotta shove now" point will be earlier.

    In fact, most of the first 10 levels are roughly double the cost in the ante tournament except the first 3 which are about quadruple.

    I still think starting chip stacks should be 10K, or we need to break out some red/white chips and start with smaller antes. I would prefer just upping the stacks.
  • DataMnDataMn
    You cannot compare level vs level, since the normal blind levels are 20 mins, while these blind levels are for 15 min. So, level 10 in my blind levels corresponds to minutes 15 to 20 of level 7 and minutes 1 to 10 of a regular Bristol.
  • BrennerMBrennerM
    DataMn wrote: »
    You cannot compare level vs level, since the normal blind levels are 20 mins, while these blind levels are for 15 min. So, level 10 in my blind levels corresponds to minutes 15 to 20 of level 7 and minutes 1 to 10 of a regular Bristol.

    Yeah, but doesn't that make it worse rather than better? I was assuming 20 mins for both.
  • DataMnDataMn
    Thanks for following the rest of the conversation before commenting.

    We already talked about making the blinds 15 minutes to smooth out some of the large jumps that were in the original structure.
  • BrennerMBrennerM
    OK, I finally broke out the old spreadsheet I created years ago to estimate when a tourney would get to heads-up. I've run 5 scenarios, including a final one that changes up the antes but still gets it done in 4:45. Note that these do NOT include breaks, so add 25 minutes or so to each duration to account for a main break plus colour-up breaks.

    I won't claim that this is perfect but it has been remarkably accurate in the past to predict when you get to heads-up. Obviously the guess at players remaining in earlier levels is more hit-and-miss.
    Normal Bristol (approx - I probably messed up some later levels)
Level	Time	SB	BB	Ante	Left	Average stack
1	0h 00m	25	25	0	24	5000
2	0h 20m	25	50	0	24	5000
3	0h 40m	50	100	0	24	5000
4	1h 00m	75	150	0	24	5000
5	1h 20m	100	200	0	24	5000
6	1h 40m	100	200	25	23	5217
7	2h 00m	150	300	25	22	5455
8	2h 20m	200	400	50	15	8000
9	2h 40m	300	600	50	12	10000
10	3h 00m	400	800	75	8	15000
11	3h 20m	500	1000	100	6	20000
12	3h 40m	600	1200	100	6	20000
13	4h 00m	800	1600	100	5	24000
14	4h 20m	1000	2000	200	3	40000
15	4h 40m	1200	2400	200	3	40000
16	5h 00m	1500	3000	200	2	60000
						
Al's antes with 5000 starting stack and 15 min levels
Level	Time	SB	BB	Ante	Left	Average stack
1	0h 00m	0	0	25	24	5000
2	0h 15m	0	0	25	24	5000
3	0h 30m	0	0	50	23	5217
4	0h 45m	0	0	50	22	5455
5	1h 00m	0	0	75	21	5714
6	1h 15m	0	0	100	20	6000
7	1h 30m	0	0	150	14	8571
8	1h 45m	0	0	200	8	15000
9	2h 00m	0	0	300	7	17143
10	2h 15m	0	0	400	6	20000
11	2h 30m	0	0	600	5	24000
12	2h 45m	0	0	900	4	30000
13	3h 00m	0	0	1200	3	40000
14	3h 15m	0	0	1500	3	40000
15	3h 30m	0	0	2000	2	60000
						
Al's antes with 10000 starting stack and 15 min levels
Level	Time	SB	BB	Ante	Left	Average stack
1	0h 00m	0	0	25	24	10000
2	0h 15m	0	0	25	24	10000
3	0h 30m	0	0	50	24	10000
4	0h 45m	0	0	50	24	10000
5	1h 00m	0	0	75	24	10000
6	1h 15m	0	0	100	23	10435
7	1h 30m	0	0	150	22	10909
8	1h 45m	0	0	200	21	11429
9	2h 00m	0	0	300	14	17143
10	2h 15m	0	0	400	8	30000
11	2h 30m	0	0	600	7	34286
12	2h 45m	0	0	900	5	48000
13	3h 00m	0	0	1200	5	48000
14	3h 15m	0	0	1500	4	60000
15	3h 30m	0	0	2000	3	80000
16	3h 45m	0	0	3000	3	80000
17	4h 00m	0	0	4000	2	120000
						
Al's antes with 10000 starting stack and 20 min levels
Level	Time	SB	BB	Ante	Left	Average stack
1	0h 00m	0	0	25	24	10000
2	0h 20m	0	0	25	24	10000
3	0h 40m	0	0	50	24	10000
4	1h 00m	0	0	50	24	10000
5	1h 20m	0	0	75	24	10000
6	1h 40m	0	0	100	23	10435
7	2h 00m	0	0	150	22	10909
8	2h 20m	0	0	200	21	11429
9	2h 40m	0	0	300	14	17143
10	3h 00m	0	0	400	8	30000
11	3h 20m	0	0	600	7	34286
12	3h 40m	0	0	900	5	48000
13	4h 00m	0	0	1200	5	48000
14	4h 20m	0	0	1500	4	60000
15	4h 40m	0	0	2000	3	80000
16	5h 00m	0	0	3000	3	80000
17	5h 20m	0	0	4000	2	120000
						
Alternate proposal - 10000 starting and 15 minute levels, with a 250 level plus slightly gentler higher levels
Level	Time	SB	BB	Ante	Left	Average stack
1	0h 00m	0	0	25	24	10000
2	0h 15m	0	0	25	24	10000
3	0h 30m	0	0	50	24	10000
4	0h 45m	0	0	50	24	10000
5	1h 00m	0	0	75	24	10000
6	1h 15m	0	0	100	23	10435
7	1h 30m	0	0	150	22	10909
8	1h 45m	0	0	200	21	11429
9	2h 00m	0	0	250	15	16000
10	2h 15m	0	0	300	14	17143
11	2h 30m	0	0	400	8	30000
12	2h 45m	0	0	500	7	34286
13	3h 00m	0	0	600	6	40000
14	3h 15m	0	0	800	6	40000
15	3h 30m	0	0	1000	5	48000
16	3h 45m	0	0	1200	5	48000
17	4h 00m	0	0	1500	4	60000
18	4h 15m	0	0	2000	3	80000
19	4h 30m	0	0	3000	3	80000
20	4h 45m	0	0	4000	2	120000
  • ZithalZithal
    Definitely the hard part is estimating what will happen, because the number of players at a table has a huge effect on the amount of chips in the middle of the table each orbit, which effects any bring in bet, which effects further bet sizes.

    I'm in total agreement that my original structure is far too fast. (And, I think that's what they found at the WSOP.. it was pretty crazy). The original plan was to air on the side of caution as I'd rather a tournament go 3 hours, than 8. :)

    I'm seriously looking at Mike's "alternate proposal", and am liking it the more I think about each level.
  • ZithalZithal
    (Also, thanks a ton for the discussion and analysis from everyone!)
  • BrennerMBrennerM
    You could probably take out the 1200 level in my alternate and save 15 minutes without much detriment. Plus it would let you colour out the black chips a bit earlier.
  • BrennerMBrennerM
    For posterity, I ran the actual schedule through my spreadsheet with 18 starting players instead of 24 (I think there were about 18 last night).

    The prediction is very close to the actual results last night:
    - a lot of players were lost between the 250-300-400 levels
    - we got down to 4 players around the 1000 level and 3 players around the 1500 level (I was eliminated 4th near the end of the 1200 level)

    I expect it got to heads up a bit earlier than the 3000 level but I could see it going that far if the chip stacks were fairly balanced.
    Level	Time		SB	BB	Ante	Left	Average stack
1	0h 00m		0	0	25	18	10000
2	0h 15m		0	0	25	18	10000
3	0h 30m		0	0	50	18	10000
4	0h 45m		0	0	50	18	10000
5	1h 00m		0	0	75	18	10000
6	1h 15m		0	0	100	18	10000
7	1h 30m		0	0	150	17	10588
8	1h 45m		0	0	200	15	12000
9	2h 00m		0	0	250	13	13846
10	2h 15m		0	0	300	8	22500
11	2h 30m		0	0	400	7	25714
12	2h 45m		0	0	500	6	30000
13	3h 00m		0	0	600	6	30000
14	3h 15m		0	0	800	5	36000
15	3h 30m		0	0	1000	4	45000
16	3h 45m		0	0	1200	4	45000
17	4h 00m		0	0	1500	3	60000
18	4h 15m		0	0	2000	3	60000
19	4h 30m		0	0	3000	2	90000
  • ZithalZithal
    It ended at the 1,500 level (though I think they accidentally jumped to 2,000) At that point, with 170,000 chips in play there were 50-60BB, so if it wasn't for who the final two were, it could have gone one for another couple hours.

    Of course, I ended the tournment with antes, going 4k, 6k, 10k (cap), so that would have ended it too. :)

    All in all, the schedule was a success. Great job! :)
  • MackeMacke
    What do you guys think of this?


    20k starting stack
    20 min levels.
    FREE BOUNTIES !
    NO Blinds. ANTES ONLY.
    All players pay the same Ante each hand.
    1st level 25 chip Ante.
    2nd level 25 chip Ante.
    3rd/4th level 50 chip Ante.
    5th/6th level 75 chip Ante.
    7th level 100 chip Ante.
    8th/200
    9th/300
    10th/400
    11th/600
    12th/800
    13th/1000
    14th/1200
    15th/1500
    16th/2000
    17th/3000
    18th/4000
    19th/5000
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