A Couple of Interesting Hands

Monteroy

Both took place in the Stars $10 rebuy shortly after the rebuy period is over. In both cases I had about average chips. The first hand is a bit more interesting:

PokerStars Game #1008321075: Tournament #4179790, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2004/12/28 - 00:09:35 (ET)
Table '4179790 100' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Monteroy (8030 in chips)
Seat 2: TheDude30 (6875 in chips)
Seat 3: 360f1 (9945 in chips)
Seat 4: Fivekid (3065 in chips)
Seat 5: IHUNTEM (7675 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: bluffboy73 (9830 in chips)
Seat 7: TMoney007 (7540 in chips)
Seat 8: perchslayer (15635 in chips)
Seat 9: txranger9 (1755 in chips)
Monteroy: posts the ante 25
TheDude30: posts the ante 25
360f1: posts the ante 25
Fivekid: posts the ante 25
IHUNTEM: posts the ante 25
bluffboy73: posts the ante 25
TMoney007: posts the ante 25
perchslayer: posts the ante 25
txranger9: posts the ante 25
Monteroy: posts small blind 200
TheDude30: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Jd Js]
360f1: folds
Fivekid: folds
IHUNTEM: folds
bluffboy73: folds
TMoney007: raises 1200 to 1600
perchslayer: folds
txranger9: folds
Monteroy: calls 1400
TheDude30: calls 1200
*** FLOP *** [9s Ts Qs]
Monteroy: bets 6405 and is all-in
TheDude30: folds
TMoney007: calls 5915 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [9s Ts Qs] [4d]
*** RIVER *** [9s Ts Qs 4d] [9h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Monteroy: shows [Jd Js] (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
TMoney007: shows [Ks Ac] (a pair of Nines)
Monteroy collected 16855 from pot


TMoney was a very nice person and we did chat about the hand after. He chuckled that he was planning to go all in after that flop but I had beaten him to it. The flop was certainly a very interesting one for both of us because we both hit the flop sort of but also missed the flop in a way.

There really were few hands that I was in deep, deep trouble against (ok K 8 s would be the worst I guess ), yet I am not so sure it would be as easy for me to call an all in as it was to bet the all in post flop, so in this case acting first did help. If I had his hand I would have likely shoved post flop as well. I do think his call was reasonable though it is very tricky to try to figure out how many outs either of us really had with that flop (especially since there was also a third person in on the flop).

It was a tricky hand given the flop and I do believe either hand could have also been played differently post flop (ie: fold to an all in) and that would not be the worst choice either. Anyone have any thoughts on this hand?


The second hand is much simpler (which is good since I seemed to have deleted the hand history of it :eek: )

I was moved to a new table and the 3rd hand in as big blind I am looking at KK. The under the gun player who has by far the most chips shoves pre flop. He has 23,000 ish chips I have an average stack of 8,000 or so (again this is shortly after rebuy period ended as blinds were still 100/200).

I called and he had aces. That got me thinking as to whether it would be possible to ever fold kings in that situation. I would have folded 10s or less and probably jacks. Not sure on Queens but maybe, however I never even thought about folding the Kings and the fact that I never even thought about it annoyed me after (granted how he played his aces was a bit bizarre).

Could anyone actually fold kings in this case?

MickeyHoldem

There's no way I can fold KK here... or almost anywhere else that I can think of... but it does remind me of an interesting/funny story I heard somewhere...

Full table... NL tourney... Player A makes standard raise... Player B re-raises... Player A re-re-raises all-in and has B covered. Player B thinks for a while and then calls... flipping over JJ. Player A turns over AA and everyone asks B why he didn't put A on aces. B's response..."Well I did, but I figured that if he had Aces then my Jacks are as good as Kings, if not better... and I'm not folding pocket Kings!" -- Classic!!!

PhallicPhil

Interesting hands Moneroy.

On the first hand, I love your early position push because you're forcing anyone with the As (or in this case, the Ks) to make a very tricky call. If you check and he goes all-in, then you have a tough decision and no fold equity. By going all-in, you made it as expensive as possible for him, giving him 10715 : 5915 -- 1.8:1 pot odds. Although this is a positive EV call for him knowing exactly what cards each of you had (he was a 1.55:1 dog), it's still tricky. A legitimate worry for him is if you have AsKx -- then you're essentially freerolling (only the Js on the turn or river would beat you). Regardless, I think I make his call too, given that it is still early in the tournament and winning that hand will put you in good standing. If he counts any jack, ace, king, or spade as his outs, he's actually a favourite. However, when you put him at a decision for all of his chips, his optimism may have narrowed significantly. Final analysis: anytime you can get your money in as a 60-40 favourite with two cards to come (as you were) I believe it is a good play.

Second hand. I go broke. Who pushes in first position with the best possible hand when they have a huge stack? I question his play because only really premium hands are going to call all-in. As a big stack, he probably could have done a number of things to suck more money from the table. At the very least, if he limps in under the gun, someone else might have also limped between him and you, then you would have raised, then he could tee off on you guys. Is he afraid of a bad beat? It's either a brilliant play by him or a suspect play. If I'm you, I cannot logically put him on aces. I more likely put him on scared jacks or AK. So I would've called too.

I was in a situation recently in a tournament when we were down to the final two tables, final table paid. I had pocket kings UTG and I limped in looking to reraise all-in preflop. A short-stack immediately to my left went all-in (which was only a small raise to me), then the chip leader came over top of him and went all-in (which put me all-in if I called). Now, in this instance, I didn't put the chip leader on pocket aces because I thought, "If I'm him and I have pocket aces, I just smooth call or put in a modest re-reraise knowing that the guy who limped in under the gun will also call." So I figured he was trying to isolate the all-in guy with a hand like AK or QQ. So I called immediately. He had pocket aces.

I think my play is worse than yours because I called a re-reraise whereas you just called a raise. T.J. Cloutier probably would have smacked me for my call.

Phil

magithighs

Monteroy wrote:

TMoney was a very nice person and we did chat about the hand after. He chuckled that he was planning to go all in after that flop but I had beaten him to it. The flop was certainly a very interesting one for both of us because we both hit the flop sort of but also missed the flop in a way.

There really were few hands that I was in deep, deep trouble against (ok K 8 s would be the worst I guess ),

Hey I was in that tourney last night -- all aces too. Looks like a good gang from the forum.

Ok, how about AQ, AJ, AA, KK, TT, 99, most of which could out flush you and will call your all-in bet that looks like you want a fold. You are ahead of only two possible hands, both of which may have a better draw. I think the results are clouding the play, which I don't like. If you plan on getting your money in, it's best to do it pre-flop. You'll never have to protect your blinds after that.

Monteroy wrote:

yet I am not so sure it would be as easy for me to call an all in as it was to bet the all in post flop, so in this case acting first did help. If I had his hand I would have likely shoved post flop as well. I do think his call was reasonable though it is very tricky to try to figure out how many outs either of us really had with that flop (especially since there was also a third person in on the flop).

He said he would have pushed in. I never believe what I hear.

Monteroy wrote:

It was a tricky hand given the flop and I do believe either hand could have also been played differently post flop (ie: fold to an all in) and that would not be the worst choice either. Anyone have any thoughts on this hand?


The second hand is much simpler (which is good since I seemed to have deleted the hand history of it :eek: )

I was moved to a new table and the 3rd hand in as big blind I am looking at KK. The under the gun player who has by far the most chips shoves pre flop. He has 23,000 ish chips I have an average stack of 8,000 or so (again this is shortly after rebuy period ended as blinds were still 100/200).

I called and he had aces. That got me thinking as to whether it would be possible to ever fold kings in that situation. I would have folded 10s or less and probably jacks. Not sure on Queens but maybe, however I never even thought about folding the Kings and the fact that I never even thought about it annoyed me after (granted how he played his aces was a bit bizarre).

Could anyone actually fold kings in this case?

Very hard to let go of kings, especially with an average stack in the Big blind, knowing you'll only have the big stack to go after. I'd like to think that I'm the "mighty carnac" and would be able to figure out UTG had aces, but I don't think I could. The only way I'd fold is if we were both in the top five at that point. I don't need to take the risk that he might have aces or out flop me. I'm in a good spot and can chose to bully other players.

Monteroy

magithighs wrote:

Hey I was in that tourney last night -- all aces too. Looks like a good gang from the forum.

Ok, how about AQ, AJ, AA, KK, TT, 99, most of which could out flush you and will call your all-in bet that looks like you want a fold. You are ahead of only two possible hands, both of which may have a better draw. I think the results are clouding the play, which I don't like. If you plan on getting your money in, it's best to do it pre-flop. You'll never have to protect your blinds after that.

Actually, these hands were from the rebuy last week, though I was in the rebuy last night (where I made the very impressive play of being at 1495 on the hand before the break, rebuying once and then forgetting to get the add-on :rolleyes: ).


Regarding some of the hands you are mentioning, even if he has AA with the spade I will still have 8 outs (2 jacks 3 kings 3 9s), which while hardly ideal is not quite the end of the world. If he has AA without a spade I may even be the favorite as I would have about 17 outs. Even against made trips like 99 I still have a ton of outs and its probably around a coin flip.

Yes there are a few select hands which can really put me in deep trouble like AKs, but the odds are he will not have one of the few hands that puts me in a hell position and more likely has a hand if he calls that puts me in a heck position

Oh, for all the effort of that hand I ended up falling short that night when I lost all my chips about an hour later to a person who called an all in post flop reraise (and was a huge one) on an inside straight draw with 2 undercards and hit and beat my 2 pair.