The nut straight at the flop
I have had the nut straight at the flop in different tournaments. I was raised all in several times and called. In one case there were 3 of us in the pot with me last to act. I figured someone was drawing to a flush or had a set but hoping for the best I called the all in as I knew I had the best hand at the time. One guy hit his flush and out I went.
Another game, again the best possible hand at the flop (nut straight) and something similar happened except I was not last to act. I was raised and then re-raised all in and again called. There were 3 different suits up so I figured that both may have had sets or a straight same as me. At the river the board paired giving the player with the set a FH. The other guy only had a pair.
The third case was similar to the one above.These three were big tournaments and after the third time this happened I now question the play. In a one million dollar prize pool tournament, with the best possible straight on the flop, with a possible flush draw up and 3 in the pot how would you play the hand 1st to act, 2nd to act or 3rd to act.If there was no flush draw up at the flop how would you play the hand, would it be any different?
To me it seemed absolutely insane to fold, but now considering 3 in a pot I realize that each would only likely risk the entire stack if they had a straight as well or a set. If the guy holding the set started with a pocket pair then he would have 11 outs to beat me which is very good. If both held sets I would be a long shot to have the straight hold up. This is not even considering the possibility of one hitting a flush. Early in a tournament is it worth the risk to lose the entire stack? Being as the hand has failed me often I think maybe not. Still I am very undecided.
Another game, again the best possible hand at the flop (nut straight) and something similar happened except I was not last to act. I was raised and then re-raised all in and again called. There were 3 different suits up so I figured that both may have had sets or a straight same as me. At the river the board paired giving the player with the set a FH. The other guy only had a pair.
The third case was similar to the one above.These three were big tournaments and after the third time this happened I now question the play. In a one million dollar prize pool tournament, with the best possible straight on the flop, with a possible flush draw up and 3 in the pot how would you play the hand 1st to act, 2nd to act or 3rd to act.If there was no flush draw up at the flop how would you play the hand, would it be any different?
To me it seemed absolutely insane to fold, but now considering 3 in a pot I realize that each would only likely risk the entire stack if they had a straight as well or a set. If the guy holding the set started with a pocket pair then he would have 11 outs to beat me which is very good. If both held sets I would be a long shot to have the straight hold up. This is not even considering the possibility of one hitting a flush. Early in a tournament is it worth the risk to lose the entire stack? Being as the hand has failed me often I think maybe not. Still I am very undecided.
Comments
The goal in any hand is to maximize the value from it.
When you flop the nut you want to get as much money in ahead as possible.
Folding is weak poker.
/thread.
This statement is very, very wrong. I could give you the long version, but if you dont want to get all the monies in as a 70% favourite perhaps you're not doing it right.
wp Wetts.
but only if I timed out...;)
Welcome to the forum,
You need to continue to make the right plays even if in the short term past things haven't worked out.
These are only the 3 tournaments that stand out in my head. I have lost with this hand many times but in low buy ins. Talked to another pro who as well has been burned often but does the same as me and gets the chips in the pot. I have noticed here in a thread that again this hand was the end of a tournament for a player, how it differs from my case is that there were only 2 in the pot.
Two important factors are here. First of all 3 players were in the pot and it was early in the tournament. Only one guy was all in at the flop with a mere top pair. All the rest had a hand. If you have 2 sets gunning for a FH, that is 22 cards that can kill your straight by making a FH. That is WITHOUT considering that one of them could hit a flush.
If one was on a flush draw and the other a set that is 20 cards that could kill the straight.
I don't think that the straight in these cases can then be considered "way ahead" I would consider it ahead but not by much it would seem.
I think it is correct to come out swinging and that the other players made an incorrect play knowing that it was likely someone had the nut straight at the flop. But I am now thinking that maybe being last to act after the other 2 were all in, if I should have thrown it away. This may be a spot that actually turns a great hand into coin toss. Many hands appear stronger than what they are. Take AK up against 9T all in. According to Harrington 9,T will win 45% of the time. There were many reasons why it was correct to get those chips in, which is what I did, but if you put those chips in and costs you more losses than wins does it not become a losing play?
Unless I see actual documented data that this hand in this type of situation loses more often than wins I will continue to play the hand the way I did and getting those chips in. But I still believe it is correct to have re-evaluated and discuss the play. I do feel better knowing that others would have made the same play too.
Assuming youre vs. 2 sets, you are a 70% fav.
Assuming youre vs. a FD and a set, you are 40% fav.
In both cases, you have more than enough equity to make a call a no brainer.
Remember, we do not play in a vaccuum. Individual hand results are irrelevant. The results of 3 hands where you lost are irrelevant. The results of 100 hands where you lost are irrelevant.
What is relevant is that with worst case scenario information you are making a profitable play statistically.
To say that it requires analysis over a sample size of 3 is ridiculous. I also want to play the pro you spoke to HU4ROLLZ.
That is a pretty good favorite, especially with 2 all-in's in front, 3-1 on your money AND a 70% fav.. Can't imagine any real pro folding there even if the cards are turned up.
edited, wetts and I were posting at the same time... As he says, where's this pro that advocates folding? playing 5/10 cent?
I am beginning to think that the 2 of you post not to assist but to rather belittle.
Think whatever you want.
You asked a question, you got an answer.
If you want to post a legitimate conversation topic, you will get a legitimate conversation.
If you want to post a ludicris question such as "should I fold the nuts", then you are going to get ludicris answers.
Unless I am wrong.
So to clarify, what exactly was your original question?
This is level 6 son.
You'll get there some day.
Can I be your boy-toy?
Fail!
Wetts is giving you an answer to a question that shouldn't have been asked in the first place. You baited the hook with your post...now you have to fight your catch.
Seriously, if you're going to fold the nut straight everytime you get it, you got a SERIOUS leak.
Perhaps.
STR82ACE, Concerning your last line you either missed what was written or you twisted what was said.
As for your response in general, it too is in bad taste. There is no need to belittle , berate or insult any person who posts a scenario or question. It is unfortunate that this seems to be the case as it likely discourages players from maintaining membership. I guess I was expecting a higher level of integrity being as this is a Canadian Site. It is disappointing to find that is not the case. Good luck to you all as this is not the site for me.
I still dont know what you were asking, or wanting to talk about, that I didnt state my opinion on in my initial response.
The fact that you didnt like my opinion, or the way it was worded, is irrelevant to me.
Just dont ever consider folding. Ever.
Another fellow who did not read the whole post or is twisting the meaning. I always had my chips in the pot with the straights. I wanted to hear other views regarding this topic.
As for the AK scenario it is much different and in no way is a leak in my game.
I have watched live tournaments and seen pros fold AK and AQ to a shove. Several times at the FINAL TABLE in last year's televised tournament at the Falls View Casino is a great example of this. You may be able to find it on line. The commentators criticized the folds but other pros thought it was the correct move.
Chris Ferguson has folded these hands in early position when re-raised. Check out Full Tilt Poker Academy. I am fully aware of pot odds, implied odds etc. It does not always mean that you are supposed to commit suicide because you have odds to call if you feel you dont have the best hand.
post of the week
month, imo.
this.
Sorry you all lose
Wrong, and your evidence is below. You are, long term, a favourite based on the math. Even if they were to make those bets, and show you their cards, you would be making a huge mistake if you folded. The fact that, on these three occasions, you were outdrawn does not change anything. If you stick around the Forum long enough, you will discover that Wetts just a little bit decent at this game, as are a few of the others who have commented. The fact that everyone is trying to tell you that your actions were correct, and you keep on insisting otherwise, makes me wonder what it would take to convince you . . . and, if you cannot be swayed, why bother to ask in the first place?