Semi Strange Question

Monteroy

Not sure anyone would know the answer. On online poker sites is the whole deck's order determined (by whatever method) before all the cards are dealt in a hand?

Basically I am curious if the flop we see will always be the flop we would see (as it would be in a live game). If the flop is randomly determined when it is dealt then in theory a change in your action would change when the flop was dealt and thus might change the flop.

Note, I am not saying either method is more fair or random, however the first example would allow you to cheer or cringe when a flop hits and I happen to think that aspect of second guessing is fun.

DJP

Semi strange answer. Yes. lol Hand is decided in advance by a random number generator integrated circuit. At least to my knowledge. So the cards are in a predetermined order.

MickeyHoldem

There are some sites that draw the next card randomly... I believe that UB does this while Pokerstars uses a set deck. There is no difference in the 'randomness' in either case as long as the site uses an adequate algorithm.

Note: The speed in which you click the call button at UB does not affect the next card... they use their own generator to choose the next card. At Paradise they do use your clicks and such in their algorithm, but they use this to set the next deck!

Monteroy

MickeyHoldem wrote:

There are some sites that draw the next card randomly... I believe that UB does this while Pokerstars uses a set deck. There is no difference in the 'randomness' in either case as long as the site uses an adequate algorithm.

I agree that either method is random, that wasn't the concern.

MickeyHoldem wrote:

Note: The speed in which you click the call button at UB does not affect the next card... they use their own generator to choose the next card.

Does it impact it? Let's say you have Q9 suited and are thinking about gambling with it by calling a moderate raise pre flop. You take a while then decide to pass and see a flop of QQ9. Now, if you had clicked call right away the flop would have been generated at a different time so in theory would have been completely different (unless it was determined via a random method in advance of you making your choice).

This has nothing to do with game play really, however if the cards are randomly determined just before they are dealt and after all players have made their choices then you can't ever second guess yourself since the card would have been different had you altered your choice (ie: taking a different amount of time, however small, to do that).

MickeyHoldem

I see your point, but there is no info regarding when they take the seed for the next card.... if it is not until it is needed then your wait time will influence what the cards are... maybe your lengthy wait influence the cards at another table and vise-versa... there you go... someone else to blame!:D

pkrfce9

If I understand your question correctly, then what you need to know is the cards are 'shuffled' at the start of the hand. The order of the deck is determined before any cards are dealt and whether you fold, raise or wait 15 seconds to decide has no impact on the cards on the flop, turn or river. (As a side note, you'll see on Pacific and other sites, if you sit at a table before the blinds have completed posting, they won't deal you in even though there is time to do this. My conjecture on this is the cards have already been determined and if you weren't there when they were decided, you can't be included in that hand.)

What the other post says, I think, is that your actions may have some impact on how the cards are shuffled in subsequent hands (i.e. the 'seed' in the random number generator). I'm not sure how much I believe this. I'd have to trust that any 'real' poker site would have it's shuffle algorithm verified by trusted authorities to certify the randomness. Otherwise, a smart computer guy could figure out how to interface to the program as it runs on his computer to pre-determine the cards for his next hand. Mind you, I have a lot of faith in the desire of these sites to maintain an image of credibility. Perhaps too much...

I would go so far as to venture the randomness of poker sites shuffling is superior to that of most human dealers. Any comments? Except Graham, of course. What a great dealer!

MickeyHoldem

I would go so far as to venture the randomness of poker sites shuffling is superior to that of most human dealers. Any comments?

I totally agree... most dealers.... 2 ruffles/1 strip/1 ruffle...cut... cards in the air... really random? I think not

What the other post says, I think, is that your actions may have some impact on how the cards are shuffled in subsequent hands (i.e. the 'seed' in the random number generator). I'm not sure how much I believe this.

taken from ParadisePoker Site:

So what good is a 2016 bit seed if it doesn't contain random data? If we were to assume for the purposes of this discussion that each hand takes approximately 120 seconds (some take more, some take less) and that we wanted to have at least 2000 new bits modifying our seed for each hand (overkill), we would need approximately 17 completely random (non-predictable) new bits per second to add to the entropy of our seed.

We have two main sources of these random bits. First, the rng on the server samples the low order bits of the CPU's time stamp counter (667MHz) at irregular parts of the program and when data is received from client connections, and uses it to add to the entropy in our large seed.

Secondly (and mainly) the client programs send their own 32-bits of entropy with every action they make and with several of the other packets they send to the server. The client's entropy is gathered from both mouse and keyboard movements, as well as the lower 32-bits of their CPU time stamp counters. With thousands of clients connected using all sorts of different hardware and moving their mice in different non-predictable ways, this is by far the biggest source of entropy and gets us far more than 17 new random bits per second. In fact, tests performed in February 2001 indicate that it typically yields over 7000 bits of new random data per second. We're using several sources of reliably random entropy; no single point of failure. Can you say overkill?

pkrfce9

Random enough that no single player, or even 2 or 3 very sophisticated ones working together could have an impact. Thanks for the info.

I'd still like to see that each site posts something about being verified by some legitimate authority as being 'fair' with regards to shuffling. I believe the big ones do post something to this effect.

Collusion? Now that's another story...